That's what I'm talking about! In fact - the last time I was at the airport a 80 year old woman in a wheel chair was being swabbed for explosives.
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Airline wins suit brought by Iraqis
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That's what I'm talking about! In fact - the last time I was at the airport a 80 year old woman in a wheel chair was being swabbed for explosives.
Maybe not "blew up" an airplane, but certainly hijacked one...
Ever heard of Air France Flight 139 back in 1976 carrying 260 people. The flight was hijacked by 2 Palastinians from the PFLP-EO and two Germans from the German Revolutionary Cells—Wilfried Bose and Brigitte Kuhlmann.
While I understand your post was in response to Loadtoad's specific example, my point is still relevant. Had they implemented profiling, the odds would have been better that they caught the Germans, and certainly the 2 palestinians.
Shit, let's just start screening all people with one-way tickets.
nikiterp86
Pro-rec'd INTEL!!!!!
Sure, I suppose it's natural to become a little bit more vigilant than usual when there are Middle Eastern men on an airplane, given the terrible precedent that's been set. But to become suspicious to the point of complaining to the airline, when the only reason for your suspicion (so far) is "there's a group of Arabic-looking men speaking a foreign language in the airport" seems a bit overboard. It seems as though this was sort of the impetus for the rest of the situation- one person raised suspicions and then everyone was on pins and needles waiting for these individuals to do something else that could be perceived as suspicious behavior. Is putting a blanket over one's head, on it's own, enough to be considered suspicious? Is leaning over to watch the safety demonstration suspicious? Would anyone have perceived the men's looks as "glares," had the first individual not spoken up about what was essentially nothing? Would the men have been "glaring" (if that is, in fact, what they were doing) if they didn't know that everyone on the plane thought they were terrorists because they were Iraqi? Maybe, who knows, but I do think that the perceptions of every other move these men made were colored by that original (completely ridiculous) complaint.
All that being said, had these men turned out to be terrorists after all of this, the complaints made by the passengers would be seen as heroic. I honestly can't say what I would have done in this situation, so it's unfair of me to judge, but I would like to think that I wouldn't have caused a fuss without something more substantial than language and Middle Easternness to back it up. Who knows? Group-think can be a powerful (and sometimes dangerous) thing.
Also, perhaps I worded it incorrectly... when I said "profiling" what I should have said was ethnic profiling. I definitely agree that it's important to "profile" by screening individuals for suspicious behavior, as long as "traveling while Arab" is not considered to be one of these behaviors.
All that being said, had these men turned out to be terrorists after all of this, the complaints made by the passengers would be seen as heroic. I honestly can't say what I would have done in this situation, so it's unfair of me to judge, but I would like to think that I wouldn't have caused a fuss without something more substantial than language and Middle Easternness to back it up. Who knows? Group-think can be a powerful (and sometimes dangerous) thing.
Also, perhaps I worded it incorrectly... when I said "profiling" what I should have said was ethnic profiling. I definitely agree that it's important to "profile" by screening individuals for suspicious behavior, as long as "traveling while Arab" is not considered to be one of these behaviors.
I can understand both sides, really. If I were Joe Schmoe passenger, I would probably be trained by history and media to be alert enough to recognize a group of four Middle Eastern men in a group on my airline. I would want re-assurance that the airline knows this fact too, and is in positive control of the situation.
After all, one of the flights had the same profile of four Middle Eastern men on it. You're only paranoid if you're wrong, and extra vigilance pays dividends. Who's to say your name won't adorn the memorial for the next big terror attack?
I'm just trying to get into the mindset of the passengers on this one. I personally would have probably introduced myself and asked them a bit about themselves. You know, friendly interrogation style.
After all, one of the flights had the same profile of four Middle Eastern men on it. You're only paranoid if you're wrong, and extra vigilance pays dividends. Who's to say your name won't adorn the memorial for the next big terror attack?
I'm just trying to get into the mindset of the passengers on this one. I personally would have probably introduced myself and asked them a bit about themselves. You know, friendly interrogation style.
Hey there! So how about that C-4 -- er -- I mean those dodgers!?
They call that the soft-sell.
Well .... here's the pre or post 9/11 deal-io for those of you who don't know the score and are huntin' & peckin' around the solution:
These A-rab assholes (whatever the color of their 'skin' or the tenor of their 'language' or whatever else you may want to consider ... ) were over the top & out of line & acting 'strangely' for all intents & purposes on ANY airplane I've ever flown in the airlines ... and ... I'd have taken 'em down, big time. The CAPTAIN did EXACTLY the right thing by returning to the gate, given the situation and details provided him ...
I think 'they' wanted to 'make a statement' ... and I think they wanted to sue.
I'd probably have done the same as the CAPT involved -- make that I'm SURE I would have, given the same input from my cabin crew -- or a whole lot worse if we were airborne -- and that's the deal. And that's reality ...
I used to brief my F/A's who/what/when/where before & after 9/11 ... can't go into all the details for obvious security reasons ... but we would have done the same ... or worse.
Believe it.
These A-rab assholes (whatever the color of their 'skin' or the tenor of their 'language' or whatever else you may want to consider ... ) were over the top & out of line & acting 'strangely' for all intents & purposes on ANY airplane I've ever flown in the airlines ... and ... I'd have taken 'em down, big time. The CAPTAIN did EXACTLY the right thing by returning to the gate, given the situation and details provided him ...
I think 'they' wanted to 'make a statement' ... and I think they wanted to sue.
I'd probably have done the same as the CAPT involved -- make that I'm SURE I would have, given the same input from my cabin crew -- or a whole lot worse if we were airborne -- and that's the deal. And that's reality ...
I used to brief my F/A's who/what/when/where before & after 9/11 ... can't go into all the details for obvious security reasons ... but we would have done the same ... or worse.
Believe it.
nikiterp86
Pro-rec'd INTEL!!!!!
Ya I don't think anyone here would argue that the crew did the wrong thing given the information with which they were provided. I think we're debating the behavior of the passengers. At least I am.
Then you are ... shall we say ... 'misinformed'.
Passengers are sheep ... and they are usually 'scared' ... especially post-911. You can ask 20 different pax 'what they saw' on ANY given airline experience ... and you'll be guaranteed at least 15 different opinions.
What would YOU have done differently (?) ... given your calm, cool, sitting in front of your computer, 'experienced' view of the situation ... ???
Bullshit walks; experience talks. And there's sooooooo much bullshit out there ... and so little hard experience.
*edit* ... while my intent is NOT to kick you in the groin on the subject (and I realize, you're a female
) ... there's just too many people who don't know squat about airline ops and airline security putting out THEIR opinion on 'what they'd do' or what the 'discussion' is ... and it's all for naught. 'Cause you don't know anything ... sorry, that's just the cold, hard truth.
nikiterp86
Pro-rec'd INTEL!!!!!
I've been on a plane with groups of Arabs before, and I've never complained to anyone about them speaking Arabic... that's all I'm saying. As I already said, I don't know what I would have done had I been one of the other passengers after all this got started. But I do know that I wouldn't have been the woman who was made so uncomfortable solely by language and Middle Eastern appearance that she started making complaints because of it. And for the record, I never claimed to know anything about airline ops or airline security. I didn't say anything about the airline or TSA or any of the authorities concerned.
Oh and PS... it still hurts when a female gets kicked in the groin haha. Nowhere near as much, I'd imagine, but it's not pleasant
Oh and PS... it still hurts when a female gets kicked in the groin haha. Nowhere near as much, I'd imagine, but it's not pleasant
Well then ... we should hire you ... as you've got it all figured out.
You DID read the whole report?? No problems w/ reading comprehension??? They did a LOT more than 'speak Arabic' ...
Like I said ... you don't know squat. I suggest you stay in your lane ...
nikiterp86
Pro-rec'd INTEL!!!!!
I did read the whole report. Did you? This is what I'm talking about:
"Prior to boarding the flight, a passenger on the flight, while still at the gate spoke to one of Defendant’s customer service managers, Anne Grove, and to the police, to express her concern about four men, identified as Middle Eastern, who appeared to be acting suspiciously. (Pls.’ Resp. Ex. B,
Grove Report; Ex. C, Grove Dep. 33-34). Grove and the police officers spoke to the passenger, who complained that the men were speaking to each other in their native language. (Grove Report). The police officers told the passenger that they had no reason to question or detain the men, as they had cleared security without incident and were not displaying any cause for intervention. (Id.) Grove reported that everything appeared normal to her, and no other passengers complained."
I'm not talking about what the rest of the people did. I'm talking about this woman and what she complained about.
"Prior to boarding the flight, a passenger on the flight, while still at the gate spoke to one of Defendant’s customer service managers, Anne Grove, and to the police, to express her concern about four men, identified as Middle Eastern, who appeared to be acting suspiciously. (Pls.’ Resp. Ex. B,
Grove Report; Ex. C, Grove Dep. 33-34). Grove and the police officers spoke to the passenger, who complained that the men were speaking to each other in their native language. (Grove Report). The police officers told the passenger that they had no reason to question or detain the men, as they had cleared security without incident and were not displaying any cause for intervention. (Id.) Grove reported that everything appeared normal to her, and no other passengers complained."
I'm not talking about what the rest of the people did. I'm talking about this woman and what she complained about.
A man with a book and a business to sell, selling fear helps that.
They don't have to be voluntary participants, or even witting. You can't discount anyone nowadays, even little Suzie and Nana.
WTF is the matter w/ you???
Yeah, I read the 'whole' report ... and a bunch of things about the incident WHEN it happend that YOU don't have the fucking need to know about -- and thus you are, once again ... shall we say, clueless ... ??
You don't know when to shut up about a subject when you're not knowledgeable about it ... do you??? You just wanna' argue and pick a fight ... so here we go:
-1 for your argumentative attitude and reading comprehension. And for not knowing what you're talking about ... any more?? I'm sure there are ...
The lady (that you referenced) said they were 'acting suspiciously', in addition to whatever else gets your hackles up. Sooooooooo what does THAT mean to you -- 'acting suspiciously' ??? Hey, the 9/11 killers 'passed security' ... or were you asleep that day?? I wonder if they were acting suspiciously or 'speaking Arabic' (?) ... and ya' know ... I really don't care. You don't know what the woman thought 'suspicious', as you weren't there -- but based on the bizarre actions of the plaintiffs when they got onboard the aircraft -- there was a lot more than speaking Arabic going down and they SHOULD have been taken down ... and they were.
And the court agreed ... the pity is YOU are trying to make a case for hearts & flowers and 'tolerance' (?) just 'cause you want to 'argue' when you don't have a clue about the nature of the business, flying for the airlines, dealing w/ disruptive pax, and many more related things, I am quite certain.
Right ??? Right .....
Cheers.
Yeah, I read the 'whole' report ... and a bunch of things about the incident WHEN it happend that YOU don't have the fucking need to know about -- and thus you are, once again ... shall we say, clueless ... ??
You don't know when to shut up about a subject when you're not knowledgeable about it ... do you??? You just wanna' argue and pick a fight ... so here we go:
-1 for your argumentative attitude and reading comprehension. And for not knowing what you're talking about ... any more?? I'm sure there are ...
The lady (that you referenced) said they were 'acting suspiciously', in addition to whatever else gets your hackles up. Sooooooooo what does THAT mean to you -- 'acting suspiciously' ??? Hey, the 9/11 killers 'passed security' ... or were you asleep that day?? I wonder if they were acting suspiciously or 'speaking Arabic' (?) ... and ya' know ... I really don't care. You don't know what the woman thought 'suspicious', as you weren't there -- but based on the bizarre actions of the plaintiffs when they got onboard the aircraft -- there was a lot more than speaking Arabic going down and they SHOULD have been taken down ... and they were.
And the court agreed ... the pity is YOU are trying to make a case for hearts & flowers and 'tolerance' (?) just 'cause you want to 'argue' when you don't have a clue about the nature of the business, flying for the airlines, dealing w/ disruptive pax, and many more related things, I am quite certain.
Right ??? Right .....
Cheers.
QuagmireMcGuire
Kinder and Gentler
Oh and PS... it still hurts when a female gets kicked in the groin haha. Nowhere near as much, I'd imagine, but it's not pleasant
Hell yeah it does. I had that happen the other day.