Airline wins suit brought by Iraqis

[wink]

In October of 2007 an American Airlines San Diego to Chicago flight returned to the gate to investigate the suspicious behavior of "middle eastern looking" men. Turns out they were military contractors that had been training Marines up at Pendleton. They sued. They lost. The US District Court of Eastern Michigan just granted summery judgment for AA. That means it was thrown out of court prior to the actual trial. The attachment is the actual decision. Worth reading to get the full and complete story, not what you heard on the evening news back then. Also interesting, a Navy officer plays a prominent role. Anyone know him?

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/paulbormansummaryjudgmtorder.pdf

 

[KBayDog]

Great read; thanks for sharing...even though the legal-ese nearly put me in a coma!

 

[MIDNJAC]

While I agree that the flight crew did the right thing given the information they had, I have to wonder whether or not the general paranoia of the other passengers on the flight brought out the "alarming" behavior from the defendants. The defendants clearly weren't going to do anything, and it just strikes me as odd that they made the woman so uncomfortable in the first place.

Though the lawsuit and brief indicate that there wasn't any profiling from the airline's end, I am unconvinced that the concerned passengers had any evidence to support the wild conclusions they came to (aside from the obvious historical precedence that is probably not far from all of our minds). IMHO good on the outcome of the lawsuit, but bad on the pax for being so freaking touchy. That said, maybe there were holes in the story given in the hearing (and outlined in the brief) that would have better explained the concern some of the pax felt.

 

[nikiterp86]

No kidding... the one woman complained just because they were speaking to each other in a foreign language and they appeared to be Middle Eastern. Would she have complained if they were all blond and blue-eyed and speaking German or something? I highly doubt it. I'm not sure how I feel about the actions of the crew, and I wasn't there to see it for myself, so I'll reserve judgment on them. But some of those passengers... definitely sounds like profiling on their end from what I read.

 

[KBayDog]

Would she have complained if they were all blond and blue-eyed and speaking German or something?

If it were 1987, vice 2007, she probably would have.

 

[scoolbubba]

Better safe than sorry.

Maybe flight attendants spook easy when paxs' eyes don't glaze over at their safety brief.

 

[wink]

While I agree that the flight crew did the right thing given the information they had, I have to wonder whether or not the general paranoia of the other passengers on the flight brought out the "alarming" behavior from the defendants. The defendants clearly weren't going to do anything, and it just strikes me as odd that they made the woman so uncomfortable in the first place.

Though the lawsuit and brief indicate that there wasn't any profiling from the airline's end, I am unconvinced that the concerned passengers had any evidence to support the wild conclusions they came to (aside from the obvious historical precedence that is probably not far from all of our minds). IMHO good on the outcome of the lawsuit, but bad on the pax for being so freaking touchy. That said, maybe there were holes in the story given in the hearing (and outlined in the brief) that would have better explained the concern some of the pax felt.

Just how could the "general paranoia" of a couple paxs "bring out" the behavior of the plaintiffs? How about this, intoxicated, exhausted, pissed off plaintiffs purposefully act intimidating and suspicious in order to frighten passengers and crew? We have told people to be alert and on the look out for any suspicious behavior since 9/11. It is amazing to me that even two paxs on that flight still take the threat seriously enough to pay attention. The crew did everything by the book. Again, given the sensitivity training we get to be wary of racial and ethnic stereotypes I applaud the crew for being gutsy enough to take a stand and be reviled as racists. If there was any profiling, it was the plaintiffs, playing on the history of Arab terrorism and maybe even the briefings they had gotten from DOD so they could play their parts in training exercises. They decided to play rough and got pushed back, then they wanted to exploit it for some quick cash. Too bad there is one judge with hairy ones left on the bench. Lets see what happens when it gets to the Appellate Court.

 

[loadtoad]

No kidding... the one woman complained just because they were speaking to each other in a foreign language and they appeared to be Middle Eastern. Would she have complained if they were all blond and blue-eyed and speaking German or something? I highly doubt it.

I can't remember the last time that a blonde hair blue eyed German blew up an airplane...

 

[wink]

No kidding... the one woman complained just because they were speaking to each other in a foreign language and they appeared to be Middle Eastern. Would she have complained if they were all blond and blue-eyed and speaking German or something? I highly doubt it. I'm not sure how I feel about the actions of the crew, and I wasn't there to see it for myself, so I'll reserve judgment on them. But some of those passengers... definitely sounds like profiling on their end from what I read.

"Profiling" has gotten an undeserved bad rap. What makes profiling unacceptable is when actions are taken SOLELY based on a single feature of an otherwise valid profile. To refuse to board middle eastern looking men solely because you believe them to be Arabs and therefore potential terrorists is wrong, and illegal. If the same Arab men board your plane and take actions that are consistent with those taken by past Arab terrorist, then it isn't "bad" profiling in the sense the public views it. In short, profiling is legal and simply good security and law enforcement, as long as the profile consists of more then just race, or ethnicity, or religion, etc.

 

[nikiterp86]

I can't remember the last time that a blonde hair blue eyed German blew up an airplane...

So by that logic, we should only be concerned about people who appear to be of Middle Eastern descent committing acts of terrorism... that doesn't seem very smart. I'm not saying we shouldn't be vigilant, but there's a difference between vigilance and outright discrimination.

 

[wink]

I can't remember the last time that a blonde hair blue eyed German blew up an airplane...

Lots of western born and even baptised Christians have converted to Islam. At least one was a suicide bomber in Iraq. Why not just blow herself up on a plane? Chechen's don't look Arab. There are millions of Muslims in the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. Think a radical Muslim from Jakarta can't be talked into an attack on aviation because his almond eyes make him genetically indisposed to bomb a plane? Somali Muslims are black. There is just a bit of radicalism there. Richard Reid, the shoe bomber wasn't Arab. The Baader Meinhof Group was, well, German, and very deadly. They didn't bomb planes, but tactics change. It isn't safe to say that a terrorist group that has killed indiscriminately in the past, but not in aviation, will not take advantage of an aircraft in the future.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Very little of what is written in the actual words of the brief sounds unusual or alarming to me. The only facts that were presented were that at one point a plantiff had a blanket over his body, then leaned into the isle to look at the flight attendant while he was giving the security demo (which I do as well as a passenger). The rest of the info was simply a series of claims of "dirty looks" from the plantiffs by other passengers.....sounds pretty subjective to me. If I felt like I was being eyeballed for no good reason by some fellow passenger, I would probably look back at them and maybe even return an irritated expression. Like you said, throw in some alcohol, and I might be a little less restrained in my behavior.

And I agree with you about profiling.....when it is warranted

 

[wink]

Very little of what is written in the actual words of the brief sounds unusual or alarming to me. The only facts that were presented were that at one point a plantiff had a blanket over his body, then leaned into the isle to look at the flight attendant while he was giving the security demo (which I do as well as a passenger). The rest of the info was simply a series of claims of "dirty looks" from the plantiffs by other passengers.....sounds pretty subjective to me. If I felt like I was being eyeballed for no good reason by some fellow passenger, I would probably look back at them and maybe even return an irritated expression. Like you said, throw in some alcohol, and I might be a little less restrained in my behavior.

And I agree with you about profiling.....when it is warranted

Flight Attendants observe very closely tens of thousands of passengers over the course of a career. These were very senior experienced flight attendants. They knew what normal, unusual and outrageous behavior looks like. That is especially so since 9/11 because the pilots can't go back to investigate themselves. Your "dirty looks" must have seemed very very unusual and even threatening to get a seasoned FA to want to go back to the gate and subsequently be late, or worse, lose the trip to cancellation and not get paid at all.

 

[BACONATOR]

No kidding... the one woman complained just because they were speaking to each other in a foreign language and they appeared to be Middle Eastern. Would she have complained if they were all blond and blue-eyed and speaking German or something? I highly doubt it. I'm not sure how I feel about the actions of the crew, and I wasn't there to see it for myself, so I'll reserve judgment on them. But some of those passengers... definitely sounds like profiling on their end from what I read.

You're missing the point. When it comes to security, you HAVE to profile. And as inexperienced as I am on the subject, and while I know many are frothing at the keyboard thinking I'm a dumbass know-nothing, I'll defer to Aaron Cohen (ex-Israeli special forces/counterterrorism) who is a security expert with a consulting business for counterterrorism, security and law-enforcement. He is one of many who will assert that point. That's how you focus your efforts properly on counterterrorism instead of picking random numbers and throwing 17 borderline-"special" TSA agents on a 3 year old girl waiting in line. That's the current problem with TSA and the "security theater" which makes all the middle-class white folk so "comfortable", despite accomplishing nothing. And profiling doesn't necessarily mean just race. Lord knows al quaeda and like-minded terrorists have used Asian operatives as well. It has to do with focusing on a specific demographic, such as young, single males, race is a possibility, and to look for hints in body-language, conversation etc. Not all Middle-Easterners are terrorists, not all Asians are terrorists, not all white people are terrorists, not all young people are terrorists... but little 3 year old Suzy sure as hell isn't, nor is nana in the wheelchair.

/commence flaming

 

[loadtoad]

So by that logic, we should only be concerned about people who appear to be of Middle Eastern descent committing acts of terrorism... that doesn't seem very smart. I'm not saying we shouldn't be vigilant, but there's a difference between vigilance and outright discrimination.

I'm not saying we should ONLY be concerned with Middle Eastern ethnic groups. What I'm saying is if you have a Middle Easterner who obviously is not a Westerner, the margin of tolerance for odd behavior is going to be a lot smaller than that of somebody who is not. Is it discrimination? Yeah maybe, is it wrong? Not in my book. Just a fact of life for the time period we live in when flying on an airline. Don't take this as "Loadtoad thinks we should take all the Middle Easterners in the USA and make them live in internment camps" (not that you were). I just don't think one can reasonably expect the American public to not raise an eye when a group of Middle Eastern males boards an airplane. To do so would be extreme ignorance.