Air Force v.s. Navy Culture Differences

[Renegade One]

I was a VAQ-129 RAG instructor when we had the first batch of USAF folks come through to help man the expeditionary squadrons. Lots of mixed backgrounds, some good, some not so good.

So, we were doing a "production det" to El Centro. Lots of flying, getting Xs. Students would fly twice a day, instructors three times. SDO called one USAF O-4 (want to say he was from some non-tactical platform (E-3, E-8?) night prior to tell him that the brief was moved up. He cried that the phone call interrupted his "crew rest" and he couldn't fly the next day. Since the whole set was planned to get specific Xs, big wrench in the works. That led to a closed door conversation with the Ops O. ?

You can sleep when you're dead. Don't be late for the brief.

 

[Renegade One]

Long time ago Reserve Helo unit ar Luke went F-16. Many rotor heads made the transition. Love the odd ball military stories.

Like when the Army went from horses to tanks.

 

[insanebikerboy]

The crew rest thing is interesting now that I’m on the blue side. I made as much fun of AF dudes and crew rest as any other but I can say the timelines are warranted. I’ve had multiple flights with a 24 hour duty day, logging almost 16 hours in that 24 hours, so I definitely needed the 12 hours prior to. Plus, controlling agencies (TACC, AOC, etc) like to push the boundaries and short you crew rest, not a few minutes but hours less than what’s mandatory.

That said, it’s also very community dependent on the interpretation. In my old community, people wouldn’t fly if they weren’t officially notified by Skeds to enter crew rest, even though that notification isn’t required per instruction. So, if a local 2.0 pattern only sortie came available, dudes still refused to fly even though that had more than 12 hours time off and plenty of crew day left.

Compare that to my current community, if a line comes available during the day, it’s up to the pilot to verify they have had sufficient crew rest and then go fly.

I have seen dudes milk it to the point of absurdity. On one flight my crew got alerted 10 minutes earlier (so 11:50 crew rest vice 12), and the AC cancelled the flight.

So, some of the criticism is warranted but the rules do actually protect the pilot pretty well.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Big-wing and international duty days can get crazy- I've seen some of that since separating from the USN, and it's something that has to be lived to be believed.

That said, it’s also very community dependent on the interpretation. In my old community, people wouldn’t fly if they weren’t officially notified by Skeds to enter crew rest, even though that notification isn’t required per instruction. So, if a local 2.0 pattern only sortie came available, dudes still refused to fly even though that had more than 12 hours time off and plenty of crew day left.

That's insane to me. Do they just not like to fly, or did they enjoy being needlessly difficult? Who do they think is going to pull their wings for taking an unscheduled local sortie during their duty day, for which they presumably had enough crew rest? What am I missing?

But none of the above compares to having chains dragged over your head for 8 hours straight and getting zero sleep, still flying the 8.3h combat sortie the next day (thanks to "go pills") culminating in a night trap, and then turning an alert bird for the "WWIII might be about to start" flail-ex.

Good times in the Arabian Sea Yacht Club.

 

[insanebikerboy]

That's insane to me. Do they just not like to fly, or did they enjoy being needlessly difficult? Who do they think is going to pull their wings for taking an unscheduled local sortie during their duty day, for which they presumably had enough crew rest? What am I missing?

The culture was to not accept any flight unless ops/Skeds positively placed them into crew rest. For some reason the belief was they couldn’t get enough crew rest unless told what time they had to enter it. Mind you, there is nothing in any AF instruction anywhere that requires being positively placed into crew rest but it became the norm.

I asked guys why and it was they didn’t want to accept the risk. When I pointed out there was zero additional risk to just hopping on a flight, it didn’t change their opinion.

 

[Sonog]

FIFY

"Missile lock? These old planes don't have missiles!"

 

[sevenhelmet]

The culture was to not accept any flight unless ops/Skeds positively placed them into crew rest. For some reason the belief was they couldn’t get enough crew rest unless told what time they had to enter it. Mind you, there is nothing in any AF instruction anywhere that requires being positively placed into crew rest but it became the norm.

I asked guys why and it was they didn’t want to accept the risk. When I pointed out there was zero additional risk to just hopping on a flight, it didn’t change their opinion.

Wow. That’s some serious hand-holding. Did they need someone to tell them when to eat meals and take a piss too?

 

[Raymero]

We have better golf courses, junior.
And Cannon AFB, NM.

Yes you do and don't forget the LONGER runways.

 

[Raymero]

Ok ok... let the Air Force guy post it for you...

"Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect, what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes (surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great, average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in Colorado.

Banzai

PS Air Force pilots wear scarves and iron their flight suits."


Just remember.... there is a 50+% chance that the hottest girl in the bar in Singapore is actually a guy.
Not the case in the Nellis O'Club.

And you'll be able to say I'm a Navy Pilot. +++++

 

[Swanee]

I asked guys why and it was they didn’t want to accept the risk.

Unfortunately this is the way of the AF.


I was sent on a wild goose chase a few months ago trying to find a waiver for something that we didn't need a waiver for. We have AD USMC MQ-9 crews flying with us to gain hours and experiences (the USMC doesn't yet have MQ-9s for these guys to fly). My CC did not want to accept the risk of an other service pilot flying our airplanes without a waiver. But these guys are 100% trained by the AF, with current Form 8 (AF NATOPS check) paperwork from an AF FTU- so there was legitimately nothing to waive. The regs say that these guys meet the wickets to fly with us."

"Sir, there is nothing to waive, this pilot is 100% Air Force through and through, they're just paid by the USMC".

That didn't matter, and no HHQ unit was willing to waive a regulation that didn't exist, or accept the risk.

We finally got it sorted, but it took a lot more rank than what it should have.

 

[gparks1989]

The Airforce is much more of a professional flying Organization and the Navy isn’t. Air operations and air warfare is what they do as a primary mission set and they are set up as such, where as the Navy has these pesky boat things that the institution revolves around.

After working with the Air Force a bunch, I think this is a little overstated. Head to head the AF wins, but not by that much. Plenty of buffoonery on their side of the house (they too scrub entire waves for crypto issues!).

 

[HuggyU2]

Oh, we in the AF have turned into a shitshow in the past few years. Worse than ever.

That said, the anecdotes from my Navy / Marine brethren indicate they are hot on our heels in keeping up with the stupidity.

But what can I say? I'm an abused spouse and not willing to divorce the AF organization since I love the people... and the jets... so much.

 

[Austin-Powers]

May I ask how did it turn into one in the first place? I’m familiar with the infamous letter of course…and I know HackerF15E touched a bit on it on older threads. Is ANG affected to a lesser extent? Thanks Huggy…

 

[Flash]

May I ask how did it turn into one in the first place? I’m familiar with the infamous letter of course…and I know HackerF15E touched a bit on it on older threads. Is ANG affected to a lesser extent? Thanks Huggy…

The 'original' infamous letter about how the USAF had turned into a shitshow was written all the way back in the late 70's, the letter writer later became the USAF Chief of Staff IIRC. The Navy of today is not the Navy I joined 25 years ago, some things I miss but some I don't and overall it is just as good if not better as the one I joined in most respects.

So I would take the claims that things have become a shitshow with a grain of salt, because the more things change...

 

[Austin-Powers]

Thank you Flash, I’ll consider that.