Air Force v.s. Navy Culture Differences

[VMO4]

Between the USMC and various careers, and I have spent a great deal of time both instructing and being instructed by all manners of people. I have had my ass chewed by people I now consider some of my closest friends. There is absolutely a benefit to hearing Dilbert's opinion as to his mentors, people respect leadership and professionalism, and most can see it even when they are being called a fuck up with no redeeming qualities.

 

[Swanee]

Dear God. Better not hurt some kid’s fee-fees too much while I teach him how to not kill himself. Is there something I’m missing?

We value that cone's opinions of others and their ability to judge whether or someone would be a good fit in our unit.

The Cone is one of us and will be until they retire. They earned our trust when we invited them in, and they've earned a say in who joins our unit.

There are reasons for this, and each unit has been burned in the past when they didn't listen to their people. There are always more applicants for the ANG than there are slots.

If you think that's inappropriate the Guard isn't for you.

 

[croakerfish]

Thanks, that’s more reasonable than what it sounded like to me at first.

 

[number9]

Of course, when the weather is so bad that everyone else goes home or hurri-vacs their birds, the Coast Guard is launching into the storm to find some idiot in a sailboat.

Actually, they're looking for some idiot in a schooner.

 

[Flash]

My kid is a Guardsman, a prior Navigator, and has been commissioned almost 8 years.

Don't piss off a Guard cone.

There are reasons for this, and each unit has been burned in the past when they didn't listen to their people. There are always more applicants for the ANG than there are slots.

If you think that's inappropriate the Guard isn't for you.

I went through flight school with a whole bunch of Guardsmen/women and have since served with quite a few more and my view of the whole hiring process is...mixed, at best.

Every single one of the Guard folks I went through flight school with was prior service, with at least 6 but usually between 8-10 years, and almost all were going back to their 'home' states but a few weren't. They were mostly decent folks but the quality spread was a bit wider 'flying'-wise than their USAF and Navy peers, with the best flight student while I was there a gal from the HI ANG but with many of the rest a bit below fleet average.

What made my view much more mixed was there were a few that had no business being in flight school, much less some being in uniform, who ended up getting winged only because they were in the Guard. One had already failed out of flight school once but got a second chance, it's a long story, but the fact that daddy was Colonel in the Guard back home was probably the biggest factor keeping them in flight school. A few others didn't have as obviously glaring reasons other than they had some sort of 'pull' back home. As I continued my career I worked with Army and Air Guard folks several times and many of the same themes cropped up again and again, extending up to even the top ranks.

But the thing that always bothered me most was the process to get in the Guard, where the first and foremost qualifier was often who you knew and not one's qualifications, skill or accomplishments. You have to meet the standards, at least mostly, but if you didn't have that 'in' you were often SOL from the start and frankly I think that is inherently unfair, especially when compared to how almost all other military accessions work. Another result of that is the fact that 'ducks pick ducks', and while that is a fact of life in the military a 'hiring' process like the Guard's amplifies it and starts it at the very beginning.

Most of the Guard folks I've served with from the start of my career to now are great but I am glad that their hiring processes and their own brand of 'politics' is confined to them.

 

[Griz882]

I went through flight school with a whole bunch of Guardsmen/women and have since served with quite a few more and my view of the whole hiring process is...mixed, at best.

Every single one of the Guard folks I went through flight school with was prior service, with at least 6 but usually between 8-10 years, and almost all were going back to their 'home' states but a few weren't. They were mostly decent folks but the quality spread was a bit wider 'flying'-wise than their USAF and Navy peers, with the best flight student while I was there a gal from the HI ANG but with many of the rest a bit below fleet average.

What made my view much more mixed was there were a few that had no business being in flight school, much less some being in uniform, who ended up getting winged only because they were in the Guard. One had already failed out of flight school once but got a second chance, it's a long story, but the fact that daddy was Colonel in the Guard back home was probably the biggest factor keeping them in flight school. A few others didn't have as obviously glaring reasons other than they had some sort of 'pull' back home. As I continued my career I worked with Army and Air Guard folks several times and many of the same themes cropped up again and again, extending up to even the top ranks.

But the thing that always bothered me most was the process to get in the Guard, where the first and foremost qualifier was often who you knew and not one's qualifications, skill or accomplishments. You have to meet the standards, at least mostly, but if you didn't have that 'in' you were often SOL from the start and frankly I think that is inherently unfair, especially when compared to how almost all other military accessions work. Another result of that is the fact that 'ducks pick ducks', and while that is a fact of life in the military a 'hiring' process like the Guard's amplifies it and starts it at the very beginning.

Most of the Guard folks I've served with from the start of my career to now are great but I am glad that their hiring processes and their own brand of 'politics' is confined to them.

All of that is fair. The guard is a political animal and even more scary…a local politics one. I made the gigantic mistake of switching guard states about every four years or so and never became one of the genuine insiders. While it didn’t mess me up, it did keep me from certain positions that were reserved for the home team. The guard is a great organization and grows ever more critical to American defense needs but it has certain charms that baffle many active duty guys.

 

[Swanee]

I went through flight school with a whole bunch of Guardsmen/women and have since served with quite a few more and my view of the whole hiring process is...mixed, at best.

Every single one of the Guard folks I went through flight school with was prior service, with at least 6 but usually between 8-10 years, and almost all were going back to their 'home' states but a few weren't. They were mostly decent folks but the quality spread was a bit wider 'flying'-wise than their USAF and Navy peers, with the best flight student while I was there a gal from the HI ANG but with many of the rest a bit below fleet average.

What made my view much more mixed was there were a few that had no business being in flight school, much less some being in uniform, who ended up getting winged only because they were in the Guard. One had already failed out of flight school once but got a second chance, it's a long story, but the fact that daddy was Colonel in the Guard back home was probably the biggest factor keeping them in flight school. A few others didn't have as obviously glaring reasons other than they had some sort of 'pull' back home. As I continued my career I worked with Army and Air Guard folks several times and many of the same themes cropped up again and again, extending up to even the top ranks.

But the thing that always bothered me most was the process to get in the Guard, where the first and foremost qualifier was often who you knew and not one's qualifications, skill or accomplishments. You have to meet the standards, at least mostly, but if you didn't have that 'in' you were often SOL from the start and frankly I think that is inherently unfair, especially when compared to how almost all other military accessions work. Another result of that is the fact that 'ducks pick ducks', and while that is a fact of life in the military a 'hiring' process like the Guard's amplifies it and starts it at the very beginning.

Most of the Guard folks I've served with from the start of my career to now are great but I am glad that their hiring processes and their own brand of 'politics' is confined to them.

There is no perfect system. The Guard system heavily relies on, "do I want this person in my unit for the next 20 years?" It's difficult to make someone leave in the ANG. So being a better person and a fit for the unit is in a way better than being a great pilot who everyone doesn't like.

Yes, the family and friend connection thing matters, perhaps more than it should. But with the internet and message boards and facebook and websites like this one and bogeydope it's helping to get other folks' feet in the door. In counterpoint we all know that guy or gal who's dad is an Admiral/General and who got a free pass, a second or third chance, a prestigious billet opportunity who didn't really deserve it.

We have plenty of pilots who might have been good when they were Lts or Captains, but they went and joined the airlines, kept up their minimum currencies (maybe even went into regression a time or two) and have since let their skills atrophy beyond what their AD counterparts will do. If we need them to mobilize we'll get them back up to speed.

We also have the issue where you can be a Lt Col on paper, but never have had a job since you worked in a shop as an Lt right out of IQT.

It's not perfect, but it's the way it is, and when you join the Guard you're the one asking to join their way of life, they're not asking you to change it.

 

[Swanee]

All of that is fair. The guard is a political animal and even more scary…a local politics one. I made the gigantic mistake of switching guard states about every four years or so and never became one of the genuine insiders. While it didn’t mess me up, it did keep me from certain positions that were reserved for the home team. The guard is a great organization and grows ever more critical to American defense needs but it has certain charms that baffle many active duty guys.

Yes. You can be a golden child one moment and black listed the next all because of who you were aligned with, and it could have absolutely nothing to do with you or anything you did. You were just one of XXX's guys, and now he's gone and he didn't get along with the new guy.

 

[Flash]

There is no perfect system. The Guard system heavily relies on, "do I want this person in my unit for the next 20 years?" It's difficult to make someone leave in the ANG. So being a better person and a fit for the unit is in a way better than being a great pilot who everyone doesn't like.

That's true but I think the Guard's system is more flawed the the active duty one, one person's perspective who has seen both sides up close over the years.

Yes, the family and friend connection thing matters, perhaps more than it should. But with the internet and message boards and facebook and websites like this one and bogeydope it's helping to get other folks' feet in the door. In counterpoint we all know that guy or gal who's dad is an Admiral/General and who got a free pass, a second or third chance, a prestigious billet opportunity who didn't really deserve it.

I thought someone might bring that up but I have seen it, first-hand no less, much more often with the Guard than the regular military. In particular at the accessions end of things, where the internets may have made things more 'flat' but hasn't changed things as much as it should.

 

[Swanee]

That's true but I think the Guard's system is more flawed the the active duty one, one person's perspective who has seen both sides up close over the years.



I thought someone might bring that up but I have seen it, first-hand no less, much more often with the Guard than the regular military. In particular at the accessions end of things, where the internets may have made things more 'flat' but hasn't changed things as much as it should.

Fair enough.

My experience is that it is about even. Lots of the family business on the Marine side.

The AD gets to attrite A LOT of people. The ANG does not get to attrite any. So I'd say we might be better at getting folks to the min standard. The standard can be lower here for some folks. Again, we can promote people without having ever held a billet.

Eitherway, you'll never get rid of the "who you know" part of the Guard.

I'd also put the top guys in my squadron against the top guys of any AD squadron and expect to beat them.


I'd say that the ANG is a tough place to try to develop an officer because it's so much of a part time force. But at least we have a variety of both company and field grade officers from just about every branch to help that out.

If you want to be a General Officer, the ANG is not the place for you.

 

[ChuckMK23]

With 75% of US 18-28 year olds ineligible for military service (due to policy or statute), the young people who are applying for flying positions are the top x% - while its competitive, all these young adults are equally competitive for careers in law, medicine, engineering, etc, etc. I think its the same pool of people. What the AF is trying to counter is finding a young person who applies for pilot training who didnt come from an upper income white 2 (in tact) parent family. Thats hard it turns out, because life performance often is a factor of your economic and social placement as a kid, who your parents are, etc. Offered only as an observation - big societal issues.

 

[gparks1989]

We value that cone's opinions of others and their ability to judge whether or someone would be a good fit in our unit.

The Cone is one of us and will be until they retire. They earned our trust when we invited them in, and they've earned a say in who joins our unit.

There are reasons for this, and each unit has been burned in the past when they didn't listen to their people. There are always more applicants for the ANG than there are slots.

If you think that's inappropriate the Guard isn't for you.

This highlights something I've brought up before. The guard seems uniquely difficult to join because of the application process. I don't have an opinion on that other than to say it's hard. I've seen a lot of comments on this forum to would-be applicants that go something like that, "just apply to the guard, it's much better," without acknowledging how difficult of a path that is. The path to being a pilot on the AD Navy side was a pretty low hurdle during my timeframe - pass classes, pass medical, pass ASTB, commission and enjoy P'cola.

Also, @ChuckMK23 that program you're doing sounds very cool and a great way to deal with failed applicants. I don't think as many people join the Navy and want to be pilots as opposed to the USAF, so I'm not sure there's enough slack in the applicant pool to make it worthwhile for the Navy. Great idea nonetheless.

 

[Swanee]

This highlights something I've brought up before. The guard seems uniquely difficult to join because of the application process. I don't have an opinion on that other than to say it's hard. I've seen a lot of comments on this forum to would-be applicants that go something like that, "just apply to the guard, it's much better," without acknowledging how difficult of a path that is. The path to being a pilot on the AD Navy side was a pretty low hurdle during my timeframe - pass classes, pass medical, pass ASTB, commission and enjoy P'cola.

Yeah, there are different barriers to service with the Active Duty forces vs the Guard.

My USMC OCS platoon started with 93 and graduated 29.

Of all of the guys I winged with in 2012 (perhaps about 20 across all of the T/M/S), 4 are still flying in the Marine Corps.

On the flip side, we have had 2 guys in the last 10 years here in the ANG who didn't work out and attrited.



The attrition mechanism happens somewhere, just not in the same place.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Yeah, there are different barriers to service with the Active Duty forces vs the Guard.

My USMC OCS platoon started with 93 and graduated 29.

Of all of the guys I winged with in 2012 (perhaps about 20 across all of the T/M/S), 4 are still flying in the Marine Corps.

On the flip side, we have had 2 guys in the last 10 years here in the ANG who didn't work out and attrited.



The attrition mechanism happens somewhere, just not in the same place.

We just hired one of your fellow Guardsmen (Guards-persons) from Battle Creek! The paperwork to get ANG over to AF Reserves is not for the faint of heart!

 

[taxi1]

I remember when the NYANG unit at Stewart transitioned from the little Cessna Push Me-Pull You spotter planes to the C5 Galaxy. That must have been a trip.

Flip side was the sadness at Grand Forks when they went from F16 to MQ9, repeated at many other sites. Met some going through training, they were taking maintenance folks and turning them into EO/IR ball operators.

The flip-flip side was being able to go into a drill period and actually lob weapons in Afghanistan. I assume they overcame the type of orders issue on that one, since I worked with them in 2011.