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NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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- Yes, the USAF UPT timeline is important. We need to get the students out in 52 weeks.

I'll highlight another big difference between how the USAF and Army start their initial officer training versus the Navy and Marine Corps way. When I graduated my school had quite a few folks go commission into each of the four services but only two were on active duty the day they got commissioned, the Navy and Marines. The USAF and Army ROTC folks got commissioned but with few exceptions weren't on active duty and getting paid until they started their initial branch/specialty training, which usually started months after commissioning. So while the USAF does get their pilots out in 52 weeks they usually stagger at least their ROTC grads officer school start dates to help make sure that happens. Not sure if this applies to USAFA or West Point grads.
 

snake020

Contributor
I'll highlight another big difference between how the USAF and Army start their initial officer training versus the Navy and Marine Corps way. When I graduated my school had quite a few folks go commission into each of the four services but only two were on active duty the day they got commissioned, the Navy and Marines. The USAF and Army ROTC folks got commissioned but with few exceptions weren't on active duty and getting paid until they started their initial branch/specialty training, which usually started months after commissioning. So while the USAF does get their pilots out in 52 weeks they usually stagger at least their ROTC grads officer school start dates to help make sure that happens. Not sure if this applies to USAFA or West Point grads.

IIRC, they started doing that crap when I commissioned. 60 day delay as a money saving effort. Went up to as far as 180 days for future AFROTC cohorts. Really screws the new officers; is the expectation to find a job for a few months?
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
IIRC, they started doing that crap when I commissioned. 60 day delay as a money saving effort. Went up to as far as 180 days for future AFROTC cohorts. Really screws the new officers; is the expectation to find a job for a few months?
Bartend in your college town? Sounds like rough duty.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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IIRC, they started doing that crap when I commissioned. 60 day delay as a money saving effort. Went up to as far as 180 days for future AFROTC cohorts. Really screws the new officers; is the expectation to find a job for a few months?

They were doing this long before you got commissioned, I knew some guys who waited 5-9 months before they started their schools. Not the best deals for the new butter bars but it saved the services money and helped make sure those pilots got through in 52 weeks! :D
 

RedFive

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pilot
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The USAF and Army ROTC folks got commissioned but with few exceptions weren't on active duty and getting paid until they started their initial branch/specialty training, which usually started months after commissioning.
I don't think this is accurate. When I arrived at Vance, the majority of my AF classmates had been sitting there for almost a year waiting to class up. One of them had the opportunity to go to AFIT instead of waiting in Oklahoma. I could be mis-remembering, but I'm almost certain they had been sitting on their collective asses. There's really just no getting around the fact that the AF has a more streamlined pipeline. When you fly students 2 or 3 times a day, it adds up. I'm not sure I ever did that outside of a XC in Navy training. I'm not for or against AF or Navy briefing styles, both have their merits, but I think the way they brief lends itself to multiple X's per day more than our briefs do. ?‍♂️
 

Flash

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I don't think this is accurate. When I arrived at Vance, the majority of my AF classmates had been sitting there for almost a year waiting to class up. One of them had the opportunity to go to AFIT instead of waiting in Oklahoma. I could be mis-remembering, but I'm almost certain they had been sitting on their collective asses. There's really just no getting around the fact that the AF has a more streamlined pipeline. When you fly students 2 or 3 times a day, it adds up. I'm not sure I ever did that outside of a XC in Navy training. I'm not for or against AF or Navy briefing styles, both have their merits, but I think the way they brief lends itself to multiple X's per day more than our briefs do. ?‍♂️

I should have said in my post by saying that is what the USAF used to do and I can't say if they still do it, and many of the delays used to wash out in the end.

I'll agree that the Navy could do a lot better at making the sausage when it comes to flight school but as someone who went through USAF flight school I am wary of adopting their way of doing business.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
When you fly students 2 or 3 times a day, it adds up. I'm not sure I ever did that outside of a XC in Navy training. I'm not for or against AF or Navy briefing styles, both have their merits, but I think the way they brief lends itself to multiple X's per day more than our briefs do. ?‍♂️
I've seen a few different things tried to improve production in Navy primary and advanced training. I still think it comes down to institutional willpower and deciding what you want a student's primary flight training experience to look like.

The traditional primary model is one IP and one student, brief-fly-debrief. That one-on-one puts a lot of pressure on the student during the brief and that is a good thing. You have zero sense of moral support from your stick buddy when you don't know something, it's just you and the IP in that lonely cubicle.

It would be more efficient to brief two students at a time, then come back a few hours later for the second one- we did that during one of the primary training dets out to the desert several winters ago when we were suddenly short half our airplanes due to emergent maintenance issues (there's a shocker...) and of course we did get much better utilization out of the remaining airplanes.

Briefing two students at a time (or three) is also the standard model for advanced helicopter training. For slightly more brief time you save a bundle later when you hot seat (swap) the students. Speaking of aircraft availability issues, after the freak hail storm one spring weekend in 2005, we were down to something like a 10-20 aircraft each day and we were running those continuously for I think 12 hours at a time (in-house rule for the circumstances, shutdown NLT 12 hours to check the tail gearbox oil level). A few of the guys on the helo trainer thread will remember that one.

Back to primary training, hot swapping students is impossible since it's prohibited to open the T-6 canopy while the engine is running, and getting the thing shutdown and started back up again is time consuming. Even if you could swap the students out, hot refueling is impractical since the fuel point being between the wing and propeller is ummmm less than optimal... woops, thanks again, T-6 design committee. (There are a lot of very smart serviceability/maintainability features built into the T-6 but the myth of hot refueling is not one of them.)


So like both of us are saying, there are merits to each way of producing students.
 

RedFive

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pilot
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I'll agree that the Navy could do a lot better at making the sausage when it comes to flight school but as someone who went through USAF flight school I am wary of adopting their way of doing business.
So like both of us are saying, there are merits to each way of producing students.
Agree with you guys overall. Institutional change is hard, and I think especially hard in the Navy for some reason. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. I think we'd need to cherry pick some of the AF things that work, not simply adopt everything blindly. The AF actually doesn't brief multiple students at once (unless it's a form flight). The difference is that there's much less emphasis on systems and more focus on how to fly the maneuvers. As such, the IP essentially gives their equivalent of the NATOPS brief, then looks at the kneeboard card the student created that gives a basic overview of the flight profile, and then talks through it with the student. They're really teaching it more than having the student brief it.

That's not to say the student doesn't have to study, they certainly do. However, stump-the-chump is usually done outside the brief-fly-debrief cycle, thus you don't have to go home and study all afternoon to be prepared for the next flight. If you land and you find out you're scheduled for another flight, you just do it.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
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When I was an officer programs recruiter in a city with a large UPT base, I would regularly get calls from AF students who just washed out. They had been told that Navy flight training was easier, more "self paced", and that was all they needed, a bit more time. So, said their IP, or student control or whoever (I never found out trying to put a stop to this) "call the Navy". That kind of crap was conventional thought in the mid 80's, at that base anyway.

I would hear all sorts of sad stories. "I spilled out of the area couple times in T-38s. I just needed a couple more flights to get my SA." " Flying twice a day was just too much. I needed more time to prepare." "I'm just no good with the acro, the Navy has so many helicopters I thought I could get into them." These kids were grasping at straws. They actually thought the Navy would want USAF rejects. They were told Navy flight school was self paced. You had all the time in the world, two years maybe. We studied on the beach with a beer in hand, not at a table with 5 other guys. We only flew once a day and sometimes once a week. :eek: You could fly a cross country to see your girlfriend and leave the jet on the ramp all weekend.

In the end, it made me the bad guy. I had to deliver the coup de gras because the relevant AF officers did not have the balls to do so. They sent the kid off with a hope and some Navy dude crushed it in a phone call. Not cool. It still pisses me off.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Not laughing at you, @wink , or your experience of having to be the dream crusher because of some rumor mongers from another service. It sounds like some of their IPs were drinking their own kool-aide straight from the punch bowl and the washouts, grasping at straws, were willing to drink right up too. Flip the picture around and it's about as ignorant as saying that AF training is easier because naval flight students have to learn better self-study habits.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
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Just as I bring up tradition - the CNO reinstates the Union Jack and first use on anniversay of Battle of Midway. Well done CNO!

Really? What is more traditional, the very first Navy Jack, or the union? I'd rather fly the flag flown by our heroes from the days of sail when the Navy was proving itself a worthy opponent to all comers.
 

Flash

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Really? What is more traditional, the very first Navy Jack, or the union? I'd rather fly the flag flown by our heroes from the days of sail when the Navy was proving itself a worthy opponent to all comers.

The 'Union Jack' would be much more traditional since it was flown from US Navy ships almost continually for a little over 200 years, from the American Revolution on, while the reintroduction of the 'First Navy Jack' was a 70's thing along with the Navy's birthday.
 

Brett327

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Demonstrating once again that Chuck has no idea what he wants, or why he wants it. Novelty requires a reaction in the form of either full throated support, or vehement condemnation, seemingly determined at random.
 
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