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NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

Austin-Powers

Powers By Name, Powers By Reputation
Question that is serious: Why does it matter if the Air Force has the hand holding philosophy? Or more prohibitive, I know I am just barely a new guy but is the Air Force really hostile to their pilots in terms of prohibitive culture?

For example NATOPS vs Dash One. I also heard that Navy JOs have more responsibility than their Air Force counterparts, why does this matter? I'm sorry if this comes off a dickish FNG question, but I am genuinely curious of how this works.

 

HuggyU2

Well-Known Member
None
I'll chime in since I was asked to. I'll caveat that I'm not the burning bush on these issues, and that I've been away a while from the training command. That said, I keep close ties to a number of folks still there. I haven't asked them to validate my potentially dated insights, but a few points. This will likely be long... I'll follow up if you have questions or comments.

- It's been a 52 week program for a long time. I recall many years ago my Navy buds getting winged (in over 2 years), and going to their follow on RAG... and then sitting there 9 months surfing San Diego waiting for their start date. Inefficient to say the least. In the AF, the class needs to meet their graduation dates because all of the follow-on training has been prog'd out well in advance. I can't imagine someone showing up to F-16 training and being unproductive and/or unused for months on end. I can't address why the Navy does it their way. Could they do it faster? Yes, I believe it is what Jim123 stated: it's a matter of will, but the Navy accepts the delays.

- Yes, in the AF you stay in the flight room most of the day until off of "formal release", however I believe many of the memories recalled here are a bit exaggerated. It's not 12 hour days for a year. In any case, yes... we keep our brand new, 22-year-old 2Lt students in the flight room until they show they have their shit together. You're there for a year... you're right out of college (most of you)... you're learning to fly turbine aircraft as well as learning life on active duty... and yes, I think it's a good idea if you are required to be in the squadron, reading your Dash-1/NATOPS, talking to IP's about techniques, talking to your classmates, etc...

- Yes, the USAF UPT timeline is important. We need to get the students out in 52 weeks. No, if a student is behind the timeline, they don't come in for the weekend. Generally, it's a much bigger picture than that. If the squadron is WAY behind, it may drive weekend flying. But they are not going to bring in control tower, maintenance, base ops, etc... to support a couple of students flying. Maybe it's changed... I'd be surprised.

- Yes, on our XC's we fly every day. It's not a vacation. It's UPT. If you don't want to fly 5 legs over the course of Friday, Saturday and Sunday, then go sell shoes at Sears. You'll get your good deal XC's in the CAF/Fleet/wherever you end up after you get winged. But a 2Lt student is there to learn. I've seen plenty of students push it up Friday night on an XC and pay the price on Saturday too. But you know what? That's a damn good lesson they learned on what NOT to do.

- Farva is correct on the tracking of specific weapons systems. As an example, after getting your wings, the guys/gals going to fighter/attack platforms go to Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals (IFF). It's an 8 week program in a squadron of former fighter/attack pilots that is dedicated to giving the the specific basic for going to the A-10, F-15, F-15E, F-16, F-22, F-35. Much of this program is learning the traditions and culture of a fighter squadron. I wouldn't call it "hazing" in this day and age, but it's a great education. Now, this program needs to morph a lot to meet the needs of the 5th Gen fighters... but that's another subject. However, these winged 2Lt's go through a demanding program for 8 weeks before heading to their RAG / RTU / FTU. Yes, some wash out. They have wings on their chest and will then go to a non-fighter aircraft in most cases.

- I remember going to UPT and being told "it is a solid year, and you need to be focused on that". I do know that still applies. So if you are a young man/woman who aspires to go, then be mentally ready. And if you're married, it better be a team decision. Two guys in my UPT class had 3 kids, and their wives both had a 4th while there. Another was 27 years old (the old guy in our class!) and had been married for what we thought was an eternity. He was my tablemate and managed to be a good dad and good officer/pilot all at the same time. He later got the Air Force Cross for saving a Navy pilot that was shot down:

- I get that the Navy doesn't care for our stand up EP's to start the day. Fine, don't participate. But it's what we do and they are effective. Patronizing questions? No. Learn the nuances of the emergencies and now to find the answer in your checklist quickly, compose yourself, and you'll do fine. Study, work hard, and practice. I've always thought it to be ironic that Navy/Marine types... proud of their discipline and military bearing... get so worked up about having to show discipline and bearing while also showing off their prowess at handling an academic situation involving an aircraft emergency, under stress, in front of their peers. Sorry that bugs. No... actually I don't give a shit if it bugs you.

- Yes, the schedule comes ahead of QOL... sort of. "QOL" is defined how? During my 4 years in college, the thing that motivated me to go to class was the thought of going to UPT. I could not WAIT to get the hell out of college and go to that 52 week course. And even when UPT was tough, the days were long, and I had a bad sortie, I was there... my lifelong dream. QOL? I'd GLADLY go back to a year in UPT than suffer through 4 years of bullshit in the liberal world of academia, learning something in Linguistiscs 316 that I mentally dumped 6.9 milliseconds after finishing the final exam. I didn't go to UPT to have QOL. I went there to learn to fly military aircraft. And a year later 2Lt Huggy had silver wings upon his chest.

There was no greater "QOL" than the day I got those wings.
 
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Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
However, these winged 2Lt's go through a demanding program for 8 weeks before heading to their RAG / RTU / FTU. Yes, some wash out. They have wings on their chest and will then go to a non-fighter aircraft in most cases.

This is a huge cultural difference, especially in the Marine Corps. If you fail out of a syllabus as a winged aviator, you're simply unfit to fly anything manned again. If you're winged, you get an adverse fitness report and are largely treated like a broken toy. It doesn't surprise me that an aviation centric service would see the value in previous pilot training as more than just a sunk cost.



There was no greater "QOL" than the day I got those wings.

I don't think anyone who wears wings will ever stay anything otherwise.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This is a huge cultural difference, especially in the Marine Corps. If you fail out of a syllabus as a winged aviator, you're simply unfit to fly anything manned again. If you're winged, you get an adverse fitness report and are largely treated like a broken toy. It doesn't surprise me that an aviation centric service would see the value in previous pilot training as more than just a sunk cost.

That isn't always the case, I've known several folks who have been given the opportunity to fly something else but it is not standard from what I saw.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Can’t tell if you’re joking or not, but I think that is incorrect.

No, I am dead serious. That particular officer specialty apparently was merged into the larger personal field in ~2013 but they still fill the billets. I went through NATO orientation with a USAF Lt Col who was going to manage MWR stuff at SHAPE, and he had been doing that for his entire career. I still remember when all the USAF guys at my school got their assignments the lacrosse team captain got MWR officer in Minot for his initial assignment, because why not?

Notably, the USAF has an officer specialty for planning & programming, which the USN does not. The USN makes its URL, RL, and Staff Corps officers do planning & programming tours. That’s why Brett327 spent so much time in the Pentagon.

There are goods and bars with both ways of doing that, I prefer the Navy way but the USAF way seems to work for them.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This is a huge cultural difference, especially in the Marine Corps. If you fail out of a syllabus as a winged aviator, you're simply unfit to fly anything manned again. If you're winged, you get an adverse fitness report and are largely treated like a broken toy. It doesn't surprise me that an aviation centric service would see the value in previous pilot training as more than just a sunk cost.





I don't think anyone who wears wings will ever stay anything otherwise.
FWIW, once upon a time, there was a Marine Pilot in the Prowler RAG that sucked. He came back as an NFO.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I'm biased, but UPT explains a lot of the cultural differences between Naval Aviators and USAF Pilots. Having seen both sides of the coin, I'd rather we trashed the joint program completely and stop trying to hold hands.

Standup EPs were wasted time. I still remember being told to sit down because I didn't say I would use my left hand to pull the PCL to off, I just said "I'll pull the PCL to off and then pull the firewall shutoff handle." Apparently, that 'inattention to detail' while explaining a two step procedure to a fucking FAIP was worth me not flying the first wave that day. I thought it was self apparent that I'd use my left hand, because, ya know, the PCL is on the left side of every aircraft sitting on the line out there. After that day, I stopped giving a shit about the standup EPs and focused on chairflying. Playing chickenshit fuckfuck games wasn't worth the effort.

If getting sat down meant I dicked up the schedulers wet dream of a first wave because I couldn't fly the first go after an "unsat event,' well, too bad and not my problem. My NSS didn't care about his schedule, either. Oddly enough, USN/USMC studs stopped getting called on for standup EPs once it affected production. We all had pretty solid grades leaving vance, too. Weird.

I found the 12 hours locked in the room to be a huge negative, as well. I didn't study in a loud room with 20 of my closest friends before, and I haven't done it since, probably because its a pretty shitty way to learn anything. We treat the studs like adults at the VTs, at least as much as we do anyone in the canoe club wearing an officer crest on their pisscutter. You wanna go to the beach and dick off? Fine. You're an adult. Don't expect that to buy you much sympathy at the PRB after your third unsat in a row. There is a mechanism for those who show they are incapable of studying, but the onus is on them to do well before it gets to that point. They're generally better rested for their events, too, probably because they're not getting up at 0400 to be at the squadron at 0500 even though they're not scheduled until the second and third waves at 10 and 2.

I don't recall doing EPs in the planes. It's been a while, but other than flying the engine out profiles, I don't remember an IP at vance ever going "simulated, I have the PCL...you have a simulated XX." I could be wrong on that, but it seems like it was always "go to high key and shoot the PEL." After early fams, 3-5 times a day on an instructional flight in orange and whites a student hears something like "simulated, you see a chip light and hear grinding from the engine...you have the controls!"

It is far more useful training and creates realistic pressure requiring actual performance in the aircraft than the stand up. SNAs who are good in the plane handle them well; others struggle. You can stand in front of a room and read a checklist and spit out your EPs verbatim? Neat. Now, can you do that while maneuvering for high key from a point in space, manage your energy, and make the radio comms? If yea, then your gradesheet will reflect it and so will your NSS. If no, then your NSS will reflect that, too.

I will say that our briefs in the VTs have far higher expectations for the students than the briefs at VAFB. They generally covered a cookie cutter NATOPS brief. The VTs treat that as an admin item to get out of the way with the meat of the brief spent on discuss items and the flight's overall learning objectives and profile.

A huge portion of our time to train difficulties would go away if we junked training bases that are next to the coast and moved all training to the high desert, but because seaplane ramps were a thing, here we are. I might have been lucky, but I winged in a year start to finish and was flying in the P-3 about a week before I put on JG. Buddies of mine who went to primary in corpus (and did dets to Roswell or Las Cruces) finished primary faster than I did. TTT in advanced at Corpus was faster than my E-6 brethren who went over to VAFB for their trip through the fuckfuck games.

At the end of the day, both make the product their respective service wants. That's fine. Just don't expect fleet aviators to look back at their experience with the air force in pilot training as particularly enjoyable. It wasn't. The best positive I can think of was I knew better than to ever entertain going to Vance as an IP for shore duty.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
And yet, USAF makes pilot production work on a timeline, while USN struggles mightily.
Besides pilot production the AF is introducing fundamental structure/culture of how the AF goes to war. We dont talk about actually fighting the airplane/helo at the fundamental stage - where as a AF dude going through UPT is reminded the aircraft is an implement of combat. We dismiss that as cheesy - but personally I like it.

The other thing that AF folks get in UPT is culture and tradition - link to 8th AF, Triple Nickel, etc. I wish in primary/VT's we did something like that - roots of greatness of Naval Aviation - Battle of Coral Sea, Formosa Air Battle, TF38, VT-8, Yankee Station - our roots! Glory! Naval Aviators getting shot to hell and returning back to the boat ... The AF does this magnificently - we are too humble. Air Medals, DFC's, and Glory matter.
 

croakerfish

Well-Known Member
pilot
Besides pilot production the AF is introducing fundamental structure/culture of how the AF goes to war. We dont talk about actually fighting the airplane/helo at the fundamental stage - where as a AF dude going through UPT is reminded the aircraft is an implement of combat. We dismiss that as cheesy - but personally I like it.

The other thing that AF folks get in UPT is culture and tradition - link to 8th AF, Triple Nickel, etc. I wish in primary/VT's we did something like that - roots of greatness of Naval Aviation - Battle of Coral Sea, Formosa Air Battle, TF38, VT-8, Yankee Station - our roots! Glory! Naval Aviators getting shot to hell and returning back to the boat ... The AF does this magnificently - we are too humble. Air Medals, DFC's, and Glory matter.

I think not being a cheeseball dork IS our culture. Fleet squadrons do plenty to commemorate past exploits without making nuggets memorize a bunch of weird songs and crap.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I think not being a cheeseball dork IS our culture. Fleet squadrons do plenty to commemorate past exploits without making nuggets memorize a bunch of weird songs and crap.


Weather doesn’t help, but having bases in MS, TX, and OK means that’s not a unique driver to navy training. I will say the winter overcast shit does seem to be way worse on the coast than anywhere else...shocking, right? Parts and aircraft availability are not as good on Navy bases as they were when I went through primary at Vance. We never cancelled for aircraft availability. Never.

And yea, the cheesedick games were annoying. The IPs took themselves pretty seriously for guys who flew a single engine trainer. If that’s ‘culture,’ they can keep it.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The other thing that AF folks get in UPT is culture and tradition - link to 8th AF, Triple Nickel, etc. I wish in primary/VT's we did something like that - roots of greatness of Naval Aviation - Battle of Coral Sea, Formosa Air Battle, TF38, VT-8, Yankee Station - our roots! Glory! Naval Aviators getting shot to hell and returning back to the boat ... The AF does this magnificently - we are too humble. Air Medals, DFC's, and Glory matter.

I think the Naval Aviation could do quite a bit better with the history bit, especially keeping squadron hertiages alive instead of casually dismissing them when a new aircraft is introduced to the community, but I am not so sure the USAF's way of cultural indoctrination would do well in the Navy.

We treat the studs like adults at the VTs, at least as much as we do anyone in the canoe club wearing an officer crest on their pisscutter. You wanna go to the beach and dick off? Fine. You're an adult. Don't expect that to buy you much sympathy at the PRB after your third unsat in a row.

^^This^^! This extends to how the service often treats their folks after getting winged. At least they aren't as bad as the Army though, who treats their soldiers like kindergartners who can't follow the simplest of rules without someone over their shoulder telling them how to do it.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
I went to Vance. My girlfriend at the time was getting deployed and I had already been waiting around 8 months, so I volunteered. My peers thought I was nuts, but at the time it was the only way to guarantee T-6s and I was ready to start flying. T-34s were having all sorts of MX issues and T-6s literally had new car smell.

@HuggyU2 makes a lot of good points. I'll throw a couple more cents in...

-12 hour days only lasted for a couple weeks, it wasn't that bad.
-Only ONE time did I walk to the line and have to return because the aircraft was broken and there wasn't a suitable backup -- their MX was great.
-The AF made us great at instrument flying and formation flying -- formation aerobatics? That shit was amazing.
-They never forced us to learn how to enter holding the AF way, I still don't understand that shit ?.
-Some of their Sim instructors were assholes, especially the retired Navy helo guy. We all hated him with a passion.
-Hail, tornadoes, and bugs are no joke in Oklahoma.
-Standup was different depending on who ran it. Our guys were not that anal and, to be honest, it was really good prep for a HAC board later down the road.
-Not doing EPs in the cockpit did not set us up for success in our follow-on Navy training, but you catch on real quick once you hit Navy training and our Navy IPs were understanding of this fact in the first few flights.
-Never flew on the weekends except for XC, though that was also my experience with Navy training.
-AF allowed me to go on liberty anywhere CONUS over the weekend without taking leave as long as I was back by Monday morning -- try that with the VTs. As such, I was able to spend time with my gf before she deployed.
-Because we were flying 2 or 3 times a day you became really close with your classmates. 10 years later I can still call them up for a beer.
- @scoolbubba is correct, group study was not usually the best use of our time, however, I do believe some amount of it was necessary. Cooperate to Graduate was certainly a thing to an extent. That said, nothing prevented us from throwing earplugs in or going to the auditorium at the end of the hall to study in silence.
-Because Navy/Marines were few, we were closer with our gold wing instructors than we would have been otherwise and received a lot of mentorship.
-One of the Marine Phrog instructors (who wasn't even in my flight) brought in his old HT training syllabus and took the time to teach me about Navy flight training, helos, and the fleet. Now he's an AA FO and still mentoring me.

Overall, even though the AF does some weird shit, I would go to Vance again. It was great training. And they must be doing something right because we all got through it and ended up with wings.
 
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