It's not the opportunity cost of the time necessarily. It's what our culture has become. I know that sounds sensationalist and hyperbolic to you, but keep an open mind when people say that because that is the perspective.
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NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention
- Thread starter ChuckMK23
- Start date
It's not the opportunity cost of the time necessarily. It's what our culture has become. I know that sounds sensationalist and hyperbolic to you, but keep an open mind when people say that because that is the perspective.
Add most of the inane stuff on ESAMS to this pile. While I'm at it, those solar powered stop signs on base. Who signed off on spending money on flashing red LEDs? Was a big, red, reflective octagon insufficient in a 25mph zone?
Like you said, it's what our culture has become.
https://www.navytimes.com/articles/navy-looking-to-shell-out-big-bucks-to-keep-pilots
Don't think another $25k spread over time, before taxes, is going to move the needle.
Don't think another $25k spread over time, before taxes, is going to move the needle.
I agree that the GMT/NKO is fairly non-intrusive. I seem to remember it being more of a pain ~10yrs ago when I was a fleet JO. I'd say that pain was more due to lack of available computers, the need to print certs, and the struggle of dealing with a nascent NMCI and NKO. Before everything went to a unified CAC logon each access of NKO seemed to take 30-60min to reset your password, fund the course, sign up, and then get it to launch. Then the course would take 2hrs to complete due to bandwidth and another 30min to figure out how to print the right way. So there went half a day and now I obviously am required to spend the rest of that day complaining about it. I also recall being made to repeat courses for a myriad of reasons ranging from new versions, unfamiliarity with periodicity requirements, and terrible records keeping. As I've mentioned before on here one of the most elegant GMT methods I ever saw was on USS Last Ship. Site TV had a channel dedicated to flipping slides/showing videos for the GMT of the month. And because the SWOs love paperwork, the boat also had a very robust record keeping system that departmental training LPOs could access. The system was great and I'd never seen anything like it during my time in avaiation.
However, I think there are a ton of "little things" that build up in people's lives when they're in a Squadron. I didn't notice too many of them at the time because they come on slow and a lot of them can be described as "culture" or something like that. I didn't truly notice how painful they were until I left the squadrons and left the fleet. Leaving my fleet Squadron for a test Squadron was like coming out of a cave in to bright daylight. Things were done smarter and we had clearer priorities. Leaving the test Squadron for the boat was likewise a breath of fresh air. Priorities were even clearer and then pat seemed to handle admin better. And a lot of the self imposed rules/best practices of the wing/Squadron were also gone and it was much easier to get things done. We were also an FDNF ship so the focus on operating was pretty clear.
How much of this was me growing up and how much was Squadron related? Hard to say. I do recall that my fleet Squadron never met a task it couldn't make in to a top priority and that had to be done perfectly. Bs were not a sufficient grade for anything; everything had to be an A++. Another example I remember from the fleet was we had an XO who spent a good chunk of time counseling the Squadron how to cross the road in front of the Squadron. And then spent more time looking out his window to ensure people weren't blowing off his orders. And then additional time having the offenders stand tall in his office. I also recall spending g several weeks of my time along with other DHs developing a comprehensive parking plan to ensure everyone O-4 and above (and E-9s) had a parking spot close to the hangar and that it was marked as theirs.
If you saw the money wasting insanity that is CNIC up close, you'd beg to waste money on fancy stop signs.
RadicalDude
Social Justice Warlord
There was a drastic difference in the amount of minutiae BS that I had to deal with between my tours in VQ and VAQ and a lot of it had to do with the drastic differences in support staffing of squadrons.
In VAQ we were like any regular squadron with the normally small admin and maintenance control support staffs that had to deal with the admin and compliance stuff that is required of every squadron in the Navy. The result was the normal, constant flow of all the little BS stuff that piled up in your inbox in addition to the 'regular' stuff you had to do.
In VQ though we had an O-4 LDO running the extra large admin department with much more than the usual one or two experienced YN/PN (PS)'s along an oversized maintenance department that usually had 8-10 LDO's and CWO's assigned to it. We even got a dedicated Legal O (1305) for tha least part of my tour. The result was a minimum of the everyday BS I had to deal with in Prowlers. I realize that our setup in VQ was very unique due to the two permanent dets we maintained coupled with the sheer size of the squadron and the wardroom but the extra, dedicated personnel to deal with the everyday BS was enormously helpful to our workload. It seems to me that maybe some of the manning hasn't kept up with the added workload.
I tend to think a lot of the bullshit minutiae that piles up at the Fleet operational level is due to overmanned staffs. Bunches of go-getter types sitting around with nothing better to do than nag squadrons and boats about their training completion, NFAAS verification, flu shots, blah blah...idle hands, devil's workshop, all that. I think the busywork hasn't increased over the years, per se; it's just that technology has made it harder to ignore.
You see this as a difference between single seat and two seat VFA squadrons. Most single seat squadrons have a dedicated admin LDO professional in the admin department. Two seat squadrons, because they have more people, do not have an LDO so the admin department is run by a department head. I don't care how many people you have, if none of them know how to handle admin it's going to get F'ed up. My six months as the admin department head have been the most miserable six months of my career.
I completely get that aspect of it, and share your frustrations. I'm just trying to understand those who say it takes up a significant portion of their time.
Something that should take most organizations about 5 minutes to figure out. Let's chalk that one up to unit level douche-baggery, not an institutional flaw.
Details?
I think I've done maybe 24hrs of GMT equivalent tops in the last 12 months at my current gig. The difference compared to AD, I've mostly had them built into my training schedule- the few occasions they weren't- took 2 hours of my day tops. Unlike Active Duty, those 2 hours of GMT time weren't competing with a quarterly natops full open/closed book practice exam, NJPs, Eval rewrites for 100 sailors, hosting DVs/Visiting aircraft, NMCRS fund drive, waiting on my fucking O-4 to come back to work to sign a routing sheet, SDO/FDO drama, Trying to make heads or tails of DTS, drafting awards, a sim, dealing with base public works about front office pet project, or one of 100 things that were completely time consuming but barely productive.
Here my job is to show up and fly for the most part. My flight planning/mission briefing legwork is taken care of by folks paid to do it, flight ops are tracked by folks paid specifically to do so, all the admin/travel claim/ pay BS is done by folks paid and trained to do it, the dealing with outside organizations/base, training, safety/ security disciplinary issues- you guessed it, done by folks specifically paid to do it.
Coming to an organization where folks are hired, trained and paid to do their own jobs, and not asking aircrew to do their jobs as well, has been very refreshing. On a daily basis the average level of bullshit one has to deal with is 5% of what your average person on active duty deals with and on the worst day, 20%. Individual Work/life balance has shifted from 85/15% on AD to 55/45%. I can only imagine at an airline where on lives in base and bids reserve it's about 30/70%.
Loosing the financial security blanket of an AD pension after FOSx2 was a bit unsettling at first but my happiness has increased exponentially thanks to increased personal freedom/freetime and overall reduction in work related stress. Seeing what I've seen in the last year I can't blame folks for getting out the very first day they're able to, especially if they're confident enough with their finances that they don't need to suffer through 10 Additional years of PCSs, deployments, and long working hours doing the jobs of other people as well as their own for an active duty pension. The grass isn't always green, but it's certainly less brown on the outside overall. An extra $25k after tax spread over 5-6 years isn't going to make a dent in QOL or make the BS any less annoying. An extra $75k/ year might make it worth dealing with for a lot more folks though.
Here my job is to show up and fly for the most part. My flight planning/mission briefing legwork is taken care of by folks paid to do it, flight ops are tracked by folks paid specifically to do so, all the admin/travel claim/ pay BS is done by folks paid and trained to do it, the dealing with outside organizations/base, training, safety/ security disciplinary issues- you guessed it, done by folks specifically paid to do it.
Coming to an organization where folks are hired, trained and paid to do their own jobs, and not asking aircrew to do their jobs as well, has been very refreshing. On a daily basis the average level of bullshit one has to deal with is 5% of what your average person on active duty deals with and on the worst day, 20%. Individual Work/life balance has shifted from 85/15% on AD to 55/45%. I can only imagine at an airline where on lives in base and bids reserve it's about 30/70%.
Loosing the financial security blanket of an AD pension after FOSx2 was a bit unsettling at first but my happiness has increased exponentially thanks to increased personal freedom/freetime and overall reduction in work related stress. Seeing what I've seen in the last year I can't blame folks for getting out the very first day they're able to, especially if they're confident enough with their finances that they don't need to suffer through 10 Additional years of PCSs, deployments, and long working hours doing the jobs of other people as well as their own for an active duty pension. The grass isn't always green, but it's certainly less brown on the outside overall. An extra $25k after tax spread over 5-6 years isn't going to make a dent in QOL or make the BS any less annoying. An extra $75k/ year might make it worth dealing with for a lot more folks though.
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I'd argue it's a little more sticky than that. The airlines can lobby for changes to the FARs, which could have the same results. There's a lot of concern from non-121 organizations if the system ends getting privatized, as it makes it easier for "biggest business" (which let's face it, the airlines are the biggest) to more easily dictate policy.
Why I'm leaving.
I'm in a community that every three years seems to do a 180 depending on which commodore is in charge. This gives me the impression that HSC as a whole really doesn't know what they're doing. I'm not a huge fan of golden path incestuous promotion. Why do we look at a PEP with the Air Force's RQS squadrons as a bad thing? Isn't the purpose of an exchange program to get ideas and infuse them into the missions we train to? I have a friend who was up for orders after a deploying RQS stint. His request was to go to the weapons school. It was flatly denied. This person is likely the most qualified PR guy the rotary Navy has, and he got completely shit on because he "went off the path."
It seems to be changing, as the current ACSB has 4 people selected with 84/85 experience, but this again is going off the path. The fact that the RAG is considered a highly competitive tour is, in my opinion, ridiculous. It's the most mundane flying that you can possibly have. There is little to no actual SWTP training conducted, and flying the -60 is hardly what I would consider difficult compared to teaching someone to fly in the VTs or the HTs. I know several H-60 FRS instructors that show up for work a couple times a week, if that, because they have no ground job due to the over abundance of IPs.
I also happen to be in a great position to transition. Having been in 21 years, 22 at retirement, I'll be 40 with an O-3E retirement for the rest of my life. This will allow me to go to the regionals and get some time and move on to the majors. My 5 year plan from this month is retire, regionals, and hopefully in a Major airline at the end of that 5. The opportunities the Navy afforded me were highly undesirable, and I had zero control over my career. Having done back to back sea duties I wanted to go to shore. My detailer wouldn't allow me that option. I'm paraphrasing but he said something to the matter of "I have plenty of Pri 1 sea duty billets that I need to fill." Assuming that I selected for O-4, I won't with my current fitrep see attached, and DH that would have been about 12 years of sea duty in a row. I wasn't thrilled about it and decided to vote with my feet.
Another reason. The management, rather mismanagement, of the enlisted. I had to force convert one of my ADs to a PS. My squadron was bleeding talent due to what happened with the attempted shutdown two years ago. We're just now well manned, but still below where we need to be on quals. I've got two AD1s that were force converted from AC because they became medically unqualified. When I needed solid leadership the most, they sent us those two. Don't get me wrong, they're great people, but they know nothing about maintenance. I watched a full systems CDQ get ERBd a few years ago. This CWAY crap doesn't seem to give the COs the flexibility they need to man their squadrons with the right people. COs get paid to make tough decisions. If we need to reduce a specific rating, put out to the COs that they need to nominate people from specific rating for a retention review. If there is indeed no one they would recommend to cut then let them battle that out.
I'm in a community that every three years seems to do a 180 depending on which commodore is in charge. This gives me the impression that HSC as a whole really doesn't know what they're doing. I'm not a huge fan of golden path incestuous promotion. Why do we look at a PEP with the Air Force's RQS squadrons as a bad thing? Isn't the purpose of an exchange program to get ideas and infuse them into the missions we train to? I have a friend who was up for orders after a deploying RQS stint. His request was to go to the weapons school. It was flatly denied. This person is likely the most qualified PR guy the rotary Navy has, and he got completely shit on because he "went off the path."
It seems to be changing, as the current ACSB has 4 people selected with 84/85 experience, but this again is going off the path. The fact that the RAG is considered a highly competitive tour is, in my opinion, ridiculous. It's the most mundane flying that you can possibly have. There is little to no actual SWTP training conducted, and flying the -60 is hardly what I would consider difficult compared to teaching someone to fly in the VTs or the HTs. I know several H-60 FRS instructors that show up for work a couple times a week, if that, because they have no ground job due to the over abundance of IPs.
I also happen to be in a great position to transition. Having been in 21 years, 22 at retirement, I'll be 40 with an O-3E retirement for the rest of my life. This will allow me to go to the regionals and get some time and move on to the majors. My 5 year plan from this month is retire, regionals, and hopefully in a Major airline at the end of that 5. The opportunities the Navy afforded me were highly undesirable, and I had zero control over my career. Having done back to back sea duties I wanted to go to shore. My detailer wouldn't allow me that option. I'm paraphrasing but he said something to the matter of "I have plenty of Pri 1 sea duty billets that I need to fill." Assuming that I selected for O-4, I won't with my current fitrep see attached, and DH that would have been about 12 years of sea duty in a row. I wasn't thrilled about it and decided to vote with my feet.
Another reason. The management, rather mismanagement, of the enlisted. I had to force convert one of my ADs to a PS. My squadron was bleeding talent due to what happened with the attempted shutdown two years ago. We're just now well manned, but still below where we need to be on quals. I've got two AD1s that were force converted from AC because they became medically unqualified. When I needed solid leadership the most, they sent us those two. Don't get me wrong, they're great people, but they know nothing about maintenance. I watched a full systems CDQ get ERBd a few years ago. This CWAY crap doesn't seem to give the COs the flexibility they need to man their squadrons with the right people. COs get paid to make tough decisions. If we need to reduce a specific rating, put out to the COs that they need to nominate people from specific rating for a retention review. If there is indeed no one they would recommend to cut then let them battle that out.
Attachments
Hash-tagging a FITREP. Now that is #innovative!
https://armedservices.house.gov/legislation/hearings/military-pilot-shortage
If you've got an hour and a half to kill. Sub-committee hearing on military pilot shortage.
If you've got an hour and a half to kill. Sub-committee hearing on military pilot shortage.