Unions were very necessary at one time, and performed a vital service. They have since grown too big for their britches, and are actually hurting more than helping. They need to step back and remember what their real mission is.
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10% cut in military budget
- Thread starter JBM
- Start date
President Carter left office in 1981. Who cares what he proposes?
Carter needs to go back to his cave, look for the precious and STFU.:icon_rage
Yes and no. Many of the infrastructure improvements are to existing roads and other projects, a lot of stuff needs to get fixed that is already there. And where I live, Virginia, has plenty of projects just ready to go but they don't have enough money. All the prep work has already been done so all they need is some cash to get it rolling, literally. Maybe some projects would be brand new but many are ready to go.
I think the market is so unsettled that many are not going to invest right now, no matter what the tax break. We cut taxes big time in the past few years and it really didn't help much, especially with less oversight of some sectors of the market.
The only investor willing to dump money into the stock market right now is the US Treasury. I think the stimulus has done its job so far, with all its flaws, since we have not had one major bank failure since its launch.
I think that is not necessarily true in all cases. If you spend money on bombs/weapons and then store them, there is a minimum of maintenance to do so the costs are pretty much over with and they become a ready-to-use stockpile. Plus, more ordnance means more live-fire training, which is a good form of education
You are right that education is an excellent use of resources, but keep in mind that the Navy has been actively reducing its education capabilities and the nation as a whole is horrible when it comes to education until post-secondary, where its merits and ranking skyrocket.
You're not completely insane, but you will, unfortunately, be right. We will probably have budget surpluses by the end of the President's first term, but it will not be a good thing. We are going to be forced to inflate away our debt, which means that we will be in deep, deep trouble. Every foreign entity that currently owns T-bills (Treasury notes, the "debt" that they buy from us) will cash them in and turn them into assets, like 230 Park Avenue and so forth that will not be so easily inflated away.
This argument about unions is ridiculous. Modern unions exist for the benefit of modern unions above all else--not their members, not the body politic, nobody else. In the absense of political protection, they were formed to serve a vital need, but what is the reason why the United States is the leading manufacturer of nothing except aerospace products?
Food for thought.
How Long Do We Have?
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian
Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. '
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years During those 200 years, those
nations have always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith
2. from spiritual faith to great courage
3. from courage to liberty
4. from liberty to abundance
5. from abundance to complacency
6. from complacency to apathy
7. from apathy to dependence
8. from dependence back into bondage'
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by:
Democrats: 19
Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by:
Democrats: 580,000
Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by:
Democrats: 127 million
Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Democrats: 13.2
Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: 'In aggregate, the map of the territory Republicans won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare...'
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.
How Long Do We Have?
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian
Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. '
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years During those 200 years, those
nations have always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith
2. from spiritual faith to great courage
3. from courage to liberty
4. from liberty to abundance
5. from abundance to complacency
6. from complacency to apathy
7. from apathy to dependence
8. from dependence back into bondage'
Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by:
Democrats: 19
Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by:
Democrats: 580,000
Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by:
Democrats: 127 million
Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Democrats: 13.2
Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: 'In aggregate, the map of the territory Republicans won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare...'
Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase.
My mistake. I meant President Obama. I guess that I just took to many history classes and I am starting to get them mixed up already.
They have, already. The "free" TFL costs me almost $4,000 a year in premiums and I fully expect it to double in the next two years. Agree we need to bitch. The problem is the congress.
The leftist dip-sticks that talk about full employment with infastructure spending know better. Fact is most of the jobs will go to legal/illegal aliens, about 20 million illegals some say. In my neck of the woods most all crews on Federal/State worksites, bridges, roadways, schools etc. are hispanic. Not saying they do not also need jobs, but we should have the integrity to tell the truth.
I'll agree this is the case with some - the Culinary Workers in Las Vegas instantly come to mind - but having spent the last 10 years watching corporate America take from the workers and give to the managers, I have become a believer in unions.
In response to one of the comments, I do have friends in similar positions/circumstances as mine who worked in non-union jobs. While I took hits in my compensation, they took much larger ones and and no control over where they occurred. With ALPA, we were able to mitigate the amounts and choose the (less damaging) areas they came from.
Except for natelzjames, most of you naysayers are talking from a philosophical point of view without the actual experience. I'll respect natelzjames opinion but will disagree with it. I'll also admit that my experience is basically limited to the airline world but I've seen the way management has treated non-union employees. They took bigger cuts and most took them multiple times because management could do it without any restrictions or regard for the employees.
It has also been shown the union contracts help protect the non-union workers pay and benefits. Non-union employers want quality workers and if the difference between union and non-union compensation is too great, then the corporations have problems getting quality workers. However, these same non-union employers are also the first to cut pay and benefits in the name of profit when there is any downturn in the economy, counting on the fear of unemployment to keep the worker there. I've seen it over and over the last 10 years.
You want an excellent example happening right now? FedEx. FedEx is making huge profits ($490 something million for their last quarter) but is demanding concessions from its employees because their profits were not as great as previously. The non-union employees at FedEx have already had cuts imposed unilaterally on them. For the pilots, the company has creatively interpreted their contract resulting in an hours reduction (less pay). The difference is that pilots can fight back since they have a contract. The hour reduction is being grieved as a misapplication of the contract clause. So there is a chance the union workers will prevail in preventing compensation cuts where the non-union workers are just screwed. Why are cuts necessary if the company is making close to $2 billion a year in profits? The company's answer - because the profits are 2-3% less than last year and the share holders should receive more.
I live it everyday. I understand why unions exist and why they are necessary. The perfect solution - no. But they are the only one we have to protect workers from corporate greed and ensure a fair compensation. I also understand a company needs to remain profitable to stay in business. My expereince is that most unions recognize this too and will work with the company when needed. Most unions are not the evil force management makes them out to be. But management will always be anti-union because the unions limit their power.
I also find it kind of funny that I am a conservative Republican defending unions....but sometimes life makes you do strange things.....
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I have experienced unions from both sides of the coin.
First as an Ironworker apprentice when I was 18, then as a UAW worker for a GM supplier.
Then as an Engineer at both GM, and Pratt & Whitney, I was on the "salary/non union" side of a union plant.
I have also been an Engineer at a non-union plant.
IF unions represent skilled trades (and UAW is NOT a skilled trade) then some sense of sanity prevails. Maybe it's the membership being a bit better educated and knowing it's not a zero sum game, and maybe it's something else.
The unskilled unions I have dealt with (UAW, and some guys that fell under IAM but were not skilled labor) are horrendous. They want everything for the minimum work, and don't know that you can, in fact kill the golden goose. The say the "deserve" more than an engineer because they are older than them. No consideration for skills, education or what they can do.
If the auto industry was a mishap, the UAW would be a causal factor. And probably the biggest one, but if management had acted PERFECTLY maybe they could have saved it.
Best analogy- Dual Engine failure in a 60, technically in the good part of the HV diagram, but the pilot flares just a bit too soon. Yeah, if he (management) had acted perfectly, it would have been OK, but the reason they are in the situation was because the controls were rigged wrong (UAW) and the motors flamed out.
First as an Ironworker apprentice when I was 18, then as a UAW worker for a GM supplier.
Then as an Engineer at both GM, and Pratt & Whitney, I was on the "salary/non union" side of a union plant.
I have also been an Engineer at a non-union plant.
IF unions represent skilled trades (and UAW is NOT a skilled trade) then some sense of sanity prevails. Maybe it's the membership being a bit better educated and knowing it's not a zero sum game, and maybe it's something else.
The unskilled unions I have dealt with (UAW, and some guys that fell under IAM but were not skilled labor) are horrendous. They want everything for the minimum work, and don't know that you can, in fact kill the golden goose. The say the "deserve" more than an engineer because they are older than them. No consideration for skills, education or what they can do.
If the auto industry was a mishap, the UAW would be a causal factor. And probably the biggest one, but if management had acted PERFECTLY maybe they could have saved it.
Best analogy- Dual Engine failure in a 60, technically in the good part of the HV diagram, but the pilot flares just a bit too soon. Yeah, if he (management) had acted perfectly, it would have been OK, but the reason they are in the situation was because the controls were rigged wrong (UAW) and the motors flamed out.
What HAL said... Right on the mark..
And if anybody wants to know way more than they could ever want about how FEDEX is bending over their non-union employees and how they are manipulating sections of the CBA to the union employees... Well, I'll just say I probably know a lot about it..
I came into this industry anti-union.. Became a member, like everyone else.. Was pissed off at ALPA over the age 60 fiasco.. Given the crap I have seen over the last few months, I am truly privledged to have a Union on the property! They still do serve a purpose.. Too many of you all, are wrapped around the pay rates.. Have some become inflated, sure.. But Unions provide more to their members than just pay rates..
I too am a conservative Republican, and it is hard to understand what Unions provide workers without 1) being in one and 2) being involved in one..
I will leave with this.. If they are not needed, then AGAIN, why is JetBlue trying to organize, why are FEDEX mechanics trying to organize, Employee Free Choice Act is a big ticket for the new President..
And if anybody wants to know way more than they could ever want about how FEDEX is bending over their non-union employees and how they are manipulating sections of the CBA to the union employees... Well, I'll just say I probably know a lot about it..
I came into this industry anti-union.. Became a member, like everyone else.. Was pissed off at ALPA over the age 60 fiasco.. Given the crap I have seen over the last few months, I am truly privledged to have a Union on the property! They still do serve a purpose.. Too many of you all, are wrapped around the pay rates.. Have some become inflated, sure.. But Unions provide more to their members than just pay rates..
I too am a conservative Republican, and it is hard to understand what Unions provide workers without 1) being in one and 2) being involved in one..
I will leave with this.. If they are not needed, then AGAIN, why is JetBlue trying to organize, why are FEDEX mechanics trying to organize, Employee Free Choice Act is a big ticket for the new President..
MB - I'll admit there is some truth to what you posted about the non-skilled labor side. Hence my earlier example of the Culinary Workers in Vegas. But again, necessary evil.
Frank - I just looked at your profile. I didn't realize you were a FedEx pilot.
And all the non-union positions at Delta. Just ask them how being non-union fucked them 2 or 3 years ago.....
Frank - I just looked at your profile. I didn't realize you were a FedEx pilot.
I only have second-hand experience with union rules, and they (UAW in this case) are hypocritical and nonsensical. It is so unfortunate what unions have become because they were once on the moral high ground.
But anyways, let's talk about the military budget and a word that will become popular in a few years--disenfranchisement. More and more Americans are getting upset at their government. When the inevitable results of the coming years of hyperinflation play out, the slice of the pie that still believes in hope will be far smaller and most of America will probably feel pretty disenfranchised by the political process. Now that will be something to consider. I wonder how many considered the effects of 11 Trillion dollars in debt?
But anyways, let's talk about the military budget and a word that will become popular in a few years--disenfranchisement. More and more Americans are getting upset at their government. When the inevitable results of the coming years of hyperinflation play out, the slice of the pie that still believes in hope will be far smaller and most of America will probably feel pretty disenfranchised by the political process. Now that will be something to consider. I wonder how many considered the effects of 11 Trillion dollars in debt?
Not many.. The public are generally ignorant! I don't think Congress understands what that kind of debt means... But we got change; we don't have to worry about paying the morgage or putting gas in the car.. Or so I heard
Careful now, it was strategery in the past that pushed the gas pedal down; the recent flooring of the gas pedal was also started under the strategery era. The fact that it has shown no signs of slowing (read: changing) is a large part of the disenfranchisement that some are feeling, I think.