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It's finally happening . . . Big Navy is canning the stack rank FITREP/Eval

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
A lot of pie-in-the-sky stuff here. RS moral courage
The moral courage to call balls and strikes, i.e., to be more honest with a lot of the people posting here than it appears their CO's have been.

I have NEVER seen any kind of professional development for XO/CO's that take into account all of the writing nuances and requirements our FITREP & promotion system demands.
Recently starting to include some of this at CLS/NLEC and AVCOT, but your point remains valid. This *should* be done as a part of professional mentoring between seniors and juniors (front office to DHs, DHs to JOs, etc). I was fortunate to have a CO who spent a lot of time teaching me (and holding the line) on what passes muster for a #1 EP, a #1MP, an unranked MP, and Ps. Different adverbs and what-not. It's not gaming the system. It's using precise language to express your assessment.
 
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BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
The moral courage to call balls and strikes, i.e., to be more honest with a lot of the people posting here than it appears their CO's have been.

Recently starting to include some of this at CLS/NLEC and AVCOT, but your point remains valid. This *should* be done as a part of professional mentoring between seniors and juniors (front office to DHs, DHs to JOs, etc). I was fortunate to have a CO who spent a lot of time teaching me (and holding the line) on what passes muster for a #1 EP, a #1MP, an unranked MP, and Ps. Different adverbs and what-not. It's not gaming the system. It's using precise language to express your assessment.
When you point-blank ask your skipper to justify the ranking and He can't give you an answer why he hammered 5 nails into your coffin, I'd say that skipper failed as a leader, yeah.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
Shit, the Navy doesn't lose, the Navy NEVER loses. It's a huge meat grinder that will continue to grind away regardless of how special you, me or our subordinates think they are. It's a fools errand to think that any one persons contributions or skills are sacrosanct.
I think the Navy is the loser here. Not for the reason you think. Sure, there may be the occassional undiscovered diamond in the rough, but as you say..that's just more meat for the grinder. Where the Navy and many, many other organizations lose is in how they reward behavior. They reward visibility of performance over actual performance. While no ONE person is sacrosanct, a system that rewards and promotes many for what is probably not the best criteria does lose.

The Navy manages to get some of it right. The superstars are promoted and the dipshits are encouraged to leave. We all can agree with that. Another point of agreement I think we all share is that we are all disappointed and a bit bewildered when we see a star get the boot and a dipshit get promoted. We see it after every board result. The star that gets the boot goes somewhere else and becomes successful at whatever they do. The dipshit? They stay in the Navy and adversely affect larger and larger numbers of people in the organization. Moral suffers. The wrong message continues to be dispersed and adopted. Yes, the Navy suffers.
 

RedFive

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Contributor
They reward visibility of performance over actual performance.

I had a DH who phrased this well: "Work not seen is work not done."

I was talking with our JAG the other day, she's a smart cookie but borderline introvert. We both dislike the PAO...not because we know her well, but because she unnecessarily has her fingers in everything. She also sends out a command-wide email Every. Fucking. Day. about bullshit news clips. I never wanted to auto-delete shit in outlook so badly. But when JAG was lamenting this situation, I told her what my old DH told me. Even outside of aviation it's an uphill battle for people such as the JAG who are stellar at their job but their personalities are disinclined to advertise it. This is a losing situation for the Navy.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
A corralary is that work that doesn't
I had a DH who phrased this well: "Work not seen is work not done."

I was talking with our JAG the other day, she's a smart cookie but borderline introvert. We both dislike the PAO...not because we know her well, but because she unnecessarily has her fingers in everything. She also sends out a command-wide email Every. Fucking. Day. about bullshit news clips. I never wanted to auto-delete shit in outlook so badly. But when JAG was lamenting this situation, I told her what my old DH told me. Even outside of aviation it's an uphill battle for people such as the JAG who are stellar at their job but their personalities are disinclined to advertise it. This is a losing situation for the Navy.
A corollary to this is: If the work doesn't appear to be hard, it isn't hard. Or, if you make your work look easy, it must be easy.

That's a tougher challenge for those disinclined to toot their own horn. Try to convince someone they should complain about how hard their job is, just so the boss knows it's not easy.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
A lot of the complaints about the current FITREP system seem to stem from a misunderstanding of how it works, so it seems to me that is the biggest flaw in the current system - it is not easy or intuitive to understand and not every CO/XO is good at explaining it. It's like the tax code - it's sensible as long as you can understand all of the nuances contained within.

I had a DH who phrased this well: "Work not seen is work not done."
'Work not seen is work not done' is a pretty cynical way of saying 'you should focus most of your efforts on initiatives that are important to the command.' Not because you are brown-nosing, but because if it's high enough on the list of stuff that it gets the attention of an O-5 or O-6 then it must be important and you certainly should put it high on your priority list as an O-2 - O-4. But if you want to take the approach of 'nah, that's stupid, I'm instead going to be the best [insert low-level item that has no command visibility] instead of delegating that to someone,' you shouldn't be surprised when your boss is frustrated that you can't/won't manage command initiatives and ranks you accordingly.

They reward visibility of performance over actual performance.
I don't think that's true, but as everyone here knows, communication is an important trait of being a leader. If you can't effectively communicate what you are doing to improve a division/department or support a command initiative as a DIVO/DH, then how is the CO going to think you can effectively communicate to a Commodore or Admiral about how your ship is ready to support its mission? The fact that people who are not good at effectively communicating are left by the wayside is a feature, not a bug, of the current system.

As for promoting dipshits vs. superstars, I'd be interested in how much the opinion of who constitutes a good officer or CPO differs among seniors vs. subordinates. Sometimes you get both, but some of the best military leaders in history were not well-liked by the officers or men who worked for them.

Some other gripes from the Navy times article:
-Seniority is valued over performance. When you consider that FITREPs are a recommendation for promotion/screening and not a report card, this makes quite a bit of sense. Who is more ready to be an XO, an average DH with 2 1/2 years of experience or the above average DH who showed up 6 months ago? It doesn't matter if you hit the ground running, you don't yet have the necessary experience and maturity in your current billet to move onto the next career milestone, and so your recommendation for advancement will reflect that. Where the current system gets muddy is when you have a gaggle of LTs who are all on similar timing, and someone who performs well early gets leaped by someone who performs better later in their tour. Since putting that on a FITREP to the early high performer can be detrimental, that can lead to a sticky situation if both are guys you want to keep around. There may be some 'tricks' to managing this, but see my first point about the nuances within the current FITREP system being its main flaw.

-The ranking system doesn't allow a CO to communicate a hot-running wardroom or a wardroom full of mouth breathers: I would wager that the times this happens is very, very rare. It's natural to think the guys you work with on a daily basis are the best group in the Navy, but I would imagine that's based more on emotions than any objective criteria. Every officer in the Navy has met the screening criteria, so from a "Big Navy" perspective they all have the necessary tools to be developed into effective leaders. In the case where a ship does have an exceptionally talented group of officers, there will be some objective evidence of that reflected on the FITREP - awards, inspection results, operational employment, etc.
 
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BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I had a DH who phrased this well: "Work not seen is work not done."

I was talking with our JAG the other day, she's a smart cookie but borderline introvert. We both dislike the PAO...not because we know her well, but because she unnecessarily has her fingers in everything. She also sends out a command-wide email Every. Fucking. Day. about bullshit news clips. I never wanted to auto-delete shit in outlook so badly. But when JAG was lamenting this situation, I told her what my old DH told me. Even outside of aviation it's an uphill battle for people such as the JAG who are stellar at their job but their personalities are disinclined to advertise it. This is a losing situation for the Navy.

A corralary is that work that doesn't
A corollary to this is: If the work doesn't appear to be hard, it isn't hard. Or, if you make your work look easy, it must be easy.

That's a tougher challenge for those disinclined to toot their own horn. Try to convince someone they should complain about how hard their job is, just so the boss knows it's not easy.
1000% all of this! The ONLY thing of substance the skipper told me when I asked him how he could justify giving me the FITREP he did that was a direct message of "screw you", his only answer was "well uh... your name doesn't come up a whole lot and uh.." and it trailed off into vague maxims, aphorisms and nothings.

So, absolutely right. If you don't advertise your work then it never happened. I know a bunch of my peers would often "pop by" the front office to update the skipper or ask his advice on their latest project. I don't blame them, but it's not my style.

Frankly, if the skipper didn't know what I did, the least of which included volunteering to FCF almost every weekend for a year straight, and being the only reason he had up helicopters, that seems to demonstrate a poor leader who had no clue what was going on in his command.

As Adam Carolla often breaks down such a scenario: Stupid, or liar?

Bottom line is the FITREP system is too susceptible to the caprices of a single person without any checks and balances. And in my experience it even boils down further sometimes to what the "O-4 ranking board" determines, which can be even worse when the basically absent skipper signs off on the ranking without even knowing it's validity.
 
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nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I had a DH who phrased this well: "Work not seen is work not done."

I was talking with our JAG the other day, she's a smart cookie but borderline introvert. We both dislike the PAO...not because we know her well, but because she unnecessarily has her fingers in everything. She also sends out a command-wide email Every. Fucking. Day. about bullshit news clips. I never wanted to auto-delete shit in outlook so badly. But when JAG was lamenting this situation, I told her what my old DH told me. Even outside of aviation it's an uphill battle for people such as the JAG who are stellar at their job but their personalities are disinclined to advertise it. This is a losing situation for the Navy.
Point of order . . . being an introvert doesn't mean you can't interact with people, or you're shy. It just means it takes mental energy to be "on" and interacting, and you recharge by going off somewhere and playing video games, solo backpacking, running by yourself, etc. As opposed to an extrovert, whose happy place is being surrounded by other people and interacting with them. Extroverts have to burn energy on doing solo tasks like working on the computer and studying alone, and they can't wait to tell someone else what a pain that was.

That doesn't mean introverts can't become good at doing stereotypically extroverted things, or vice versa. The whole concept of a Myers-Briggs inventory comes from the work of Carl Jung, who was Freud's protege until they had a falling-out. The entire point of Jung's work is that you have to come to terms with that other side of your personality. Saying "I'm an introvert, because I'm an INTP" or somesuch is a superficial reading of the whole concept.

/rant off
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Supposedly the vast majority of career Naval officers are INTJs, so there's that.
Source? Not saying you're wrong; I have no idea.

That's surprising, though. Granted, I know the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data." But speaking personally, I've tested as INTP multiple times. I'm towards the middle of the E/I and P/J scales, but self-identify as an I, not an E. I peg the proverbial meter as an NT, though. And to me, the worst part of being on Das Boot reminds me of Sartre: "hell is other people." When you're having a bad day, someone or everyone is driving you bugshit, and there's no damned way to get away and decompress for little while . . . God, that sucks.

Maybe once you get that nice O-5+ solo stateroom, it's not such a big deal to be an INTJ or similar. :p

Edit: Also, aren't NTs only something like 3% of the population?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I don't have a source, other than our pre-DH leadership school had us take some cheesy multiple choice test which revealed that 22/24 students were INTJ and the instructor said that this checked with historical averages.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Also, the Myers-Briggs is wildly inaccurate and easily manipulated. It might help identify people at either extreme, but the way the War College, NLEC, and others use it amounts to not much more than a parlor trick.
More remedial leadership training for you!!

 
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