It's finally happening . . . Big Navy is canning the stack rank FITREP/Eval

[BigRed389]

Thanks for clearing the picture up for me. Still doesn't clear up in my mind why it's not a SWO job. I actually kind of agree with and to a minor extent, understand why the disassociated sea tour is in our career structure; but to another degree, do feel like some of it is mopping up SWO attrition as has been mentioned in this thread.

It's not.
Those SWO billets never existed or haven't existed in a long time.

SWO is actually overmanned at the DH level to the point we literally had to make up a new DH job on AEGIS platforms (somewhat justifiable, but still a +1 from status quo) in order to accommodate.

I do agree it "could" be viewed as a SWO job, but if anything the fact it could really go either way just highlights that at some point, we all have to start learning about things outside just our community/platform.

 

[BACONATOR]

It's not.
Those SWO billets never existed or haven't existed in a long time.

SWO is actually overmanned at the DH level to the point we literally had to make up a new DH job on AEGIS platforms (somewhat justifiable, but still a +1 from status quo) in order to accommodate.

I do agree it "could" be viewed as a SWO job, but if anything the fact it could really go either way just highlights that at some point, we all have to start learning about things outside just our community/platform.

Well then you might be surprised to learn we had a SWO detailed to us with orders specifically to combat as a TAO... so I guess the SWO billet does exist in some capacity.

And I'm curious when the shift in manning happened, because I've always heard SWOs were overmanned at JO level and undermanned at DH level. My old roommate was given like a $105k bonus for DH, so if they are overmanned, why are they paying a larger bonus to a JG/LT than many 10+ year aviators get? There's a reason that bonus is so high.

And finally, I hear your last point about "professional development", and that's often the cited reason for this tour, but then I ask: why doesn't every aviator have to do it, if it's such a vital stop in our career? If you're a TACAIR guy, you don't do it, and many either go right into DH from a shore tour or a short stop on CAG staff (flying) or some other billet that aligns more with their flying experience. Call it speculation, but the time to train on a TACAIR pilot puts them in a position where they won't have enough time from their 2nd tour to DH tour to send them to a boat, and most are well within a year to MSR, so they could easily resign and prevent the Navy from PCSing them to a boat. With so much invested in their training and retention problems, the Navy likely doesn't want to rock the boat and send a bunch of them to a ship's company tour.

But a helo, TACAMO or P3 guy with 15 months left to MSR is GOING to the boat, because he needs to "learn about the Navy beyond the cockpit", despite the fact that what he will learn takes far longer to learn proficiently than the time he has to do it in, his fate with O-4 and DH is typically already sealed so motivation to do this job he hates isn't high because the FITREP won't matter to him, and he will likely never have to use it again, so the motivation to learn and retain this knowledge is low.

Bottom line: I don't fault the Navy for trying to capitalize on bodies that they can't use to fill cockpits to fill billets they can't get other communities to fill, but I think they are myopic in how much money they are wasting. Instead of "getting use" out of a guy and filling a billet, they end up filling that billet 2-3 times for a single set of orders when the person quits/FOSes out/Redes/etc. And they lose the corporate knowledge of a given ship by the high turnover rate, which hurts everyone involved. And while i don't fault them for doing what they do, I wholeheartedly applaud those who immediately resign at 12 months out, those who turned down DH, or redesignated to a new community for QOL. If you've served your contract (and really, your first tour is payback for flight school), you don't owe the Navy anything, and if you want to go the long haul, god bless. If you want a better quality of life and not be in a position to do a job you hate or end up on a boat again, then by all means leave. I was always told, quit if you want, but don't ever do it expecting the Navy will care or change because you quit. So I made the decision with that in mind. But given the number of SWTIs and RAG IPs who just quit after this last DH round, from what I hear PERS and the CDREs are starting to actually worry and perhaps when people leave in droves (particularly the golden path folks who the Navy was counting on to stay) the Navy will start to pay attention like the Air Force.

 

[Pags]

Thanks for clearing the picture up for me. Still doesn't clear up in my mind why it's not a SWO job. I actually kind of agree with and to a minor extent, understand why the disassociated sea tour is in our career structure; but to another degree, do feel like some of it is mopping up SWO attrition as has been mentioned in this thread.

Because the boat and its billets are owned by CNAF. Guess what kind of bodies CNAF has available to staff the manning requirements of the CVNs?

 

[BigRed389]

Well then you might be surprised to learn we had a SWO detailed to us with orders specifically to combat as a TAO... so I guess the SWO billet does exist in some capacity.

His JOB actually was to be TAO?

SWOs going to CVNs (or big decks) generally go take shit jobs as a "3rd DH tour" (DCA, ENG, 1LT) because they're trying to recover their careers, or they go for a DIVO tour.
The former could stand TAO but is likely going to be too damn busy, and I'm pretty sure you don't want the latter doing it.
But I've never heard of orders detailing someone to a watchstation before. But then I've never been on a CVN. Like I said, for better or worse, it's not somewhere SWOs actually want to go.

*Note: Nuke SWOs don't count. They're too busy doing weird Nuke shit.

By the way, this is what DH billets actually are for people who stay on track:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/Detailing/surfacewarfare/detailers/Documents/Department Heads/DepartmentHeadBillets.pdf
Note the CVN platform literally isn't even listed, and big deck amphib guys are going to specific Gator SWO oriented jobs.

And I'm curious when the shift in manning happened, because I've always heard SWOs were overmanned at JO level and undermanned at DH level. My old roommate was given like a $105k bonus for DH, so if they are overmanned, why are they paying a larger bonus to a JG/LT than many 10+ year aviators get? There's a reason that bonus is so high.

Current DHs are YG 06-08/09 guys.
Outside factors changed and throttle response is lagging input.
For current JOs, the bonus is being used to bribe and identify hot runners into committing early to put them into better jobs for professional development.
From the outside looking in, I would say the SWO community is actually doing a pretty good job of shaping manpower how they want it to develop, for better or worse.

 

[BACONATOR]

His JOB actually was to be TAO?

SWOs going to CVNs (or big decks) generally go take shit jobs as a "3rd DH tour" (DCA, ENG, 1LT) because they're trying to recover their careers, or they go for a DIVO tour.
The former could stand TAO but is likely going to be too damn busy, and I'm pretty sure you don't want the latter doing it.
But I've never heard of orders detailing someone to a watchstation before. But then I've never been on a CVN. Like I said, for better or worse, it's not somewhere SWOs actually want to go.

*Note: Nuke SWOs don't count. They're too busy doing weird Nuke shit.

By the way, this is what DH billets actually are for people who stay on track:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/Detailing/surfacewarfare/detailers/Documents/Department Heads/DepartmentHeadBillets.pdf
Note the CVN platform literally isn't even listed, and big deck amphib guys are going to specific Gator SWO oriented jobs.



Current DHs are YG 06-08/09 guys.
Outside factors changed and throttle response is lagging input.
For current JOs, the bonus is being used to bribe and identify hot runners into committing early to put them into better jobs for professional development.
From the outside looking in, I would say the SWO community is actually doing a pretty good job of shaping manpower how they want it to develop, for better or worse.

I forget exactly how her orders were written, but I think she was officially coming to be OI DIVO, but from what I heard it was also in part to get a dedicated SWO TAO.

 

[jollygreen07]

I forget exactly how her orders were written, but I think she was officially coming to be OI DIVO, but from what I heard it was also in part to get a dedicated SWO TAO.

We have a SWO JG with exactly the same billet. I'm pretty sure there is one on every carrier.

 

[HooverPilot]

The "SWO" jobs being covered by Aviators are the 1000 codes billets (any officer). We cover a much larger percentage of those jobs than our proportion of URL would normally cover. This was to fill a gap in the past when SWO wasn't manned properly at the DH and above level. Much of the SWO overpopolulation at the Div O level is a reaction to that historical shortage.

 

[Pags]

His JOB actually was to be TAO?

SWOs going to CVNs (or big decks) generally go take shit jobs as a "3rd DH tour" (DCA, ENG, 1LT) because they're trying to recover their careers, or they go for a DIVO tour.
The former could stand TAO but is likely going to be too damn busy, and I'm pretty sure you don't want the latter doing it.
But I've never heard of orders detailing someone to a watchstation before. But then I've never been on a CVN. Like I said, for better or worse, it's not somewhere SWOs actually want to go.

*Note: Nuke SWOs don't count. They're too busy doing weird Nuke shit.

By the way, this is what DH billets actually are for people who stay on track:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/Detailing/surfacewarfare/detailers/Documents/Department Heads/DepartmentHeadBillets.pdf
Note the CVN platform literally isn't even listed, and big deck amphib guys are going to specific Gator SWO oriented jobs.



Current DHs are YG 06-08/09 guys.
Outside factors changed and throttle response is lagging input.
For current JOs, the bonus is being used to bribe and identify hot runners into committing early to put them into better jobs for professional development.
From the outside looking in, I would say the SWO community is actually doing a pretty good job of shaping manpower how they want it to develop, for better or worse.

@BigRed389 brings up a good point, on other ships TAO is a watch standing position that is normally stood by SWO DHs. When aviators are sent to the CV as TAOs what is their "day job?" Are they filling another job in the org chart or are they just "pit TAOs?" To SWOs TAO is a DH level "qual" akin to Level 4 in aviator speak.

 

[jollygreen07]

@BigRed389 brings up a good point, on other ships TAO is a watch standing position that is normally stood by SWO DHs. When aviators are sent to the CV as TAOs what is their "day job?" Are they filling another job in the org chart or are they just "pit TAOs?" To SWOs TAO is a DH level "qual" akin to Level 4 in aviator speak.

Surprisingly few actual day jobs for aviation TAOs. A couple of DIVO jobs are available, as well as the usual collateral duties available to a JO on a carrier. Might explain why the TAO isn't a due course job on the boat.

 

[Pags]

Surprisingly few actual day jobs for aviation TAOs. A couple of DIVO jobs are available, as well as the usual collateral duties available to a JO on a carrier. Might explain why the TAO isn't a due course job on the boat.

Yeah, I'd say there's a lot of the rub right there. When a SWO stands TAO they usually do it in conjunction with a DH job. For isntance, the TAOs on the LHD were the 1st LT, TrainO, and some others. On the LSD next door the OPSO, CHENG, and 1st LT all stood TAO in addition to their other DH duties. So sounds like the workload between a DH SWO that stands a TAO watch and an aviator filling a TAO billet are very different.

 

[picklesuit]

Surprisingly few actual day jobs for aviation TAOs. A couple of DIVO jobs are available, as well as the usual collateral duties available to a JO on a carrier. Might explain why the TAO isn't a due course job on the boat.

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why TAO is not viewed as "competitive."

All day in Combat with small divisions and no time in front of the voting parties on the boat, versus ANAV (nothing but responsibility and FaceTime) or Shooter (FaceTime, huge divisions, and a lot more responsibility).

We had some Ops guys pick up O-4 this look, trying to think of any TAO's picked up...

 

[Pags]

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why TAO is not viewed as "competitive."

All day in Combat with small divisions and no time in front of the voting parties on the boat, versus ANAV (nothing but responsibility and FaceTime) or Shooter (FaceTime, huge divisions, and a lot more responsibility).

We had some Ops guys pick up O-4 this look, trying to think of any TAO's picked up...

Agreed. If all it is is standing TAO that billet isn't going to make any officer, brown or black shoe, any career money. So there's no incentive for the SWOs to send their guys there. Therefore it's CNAF's job to get it manned with CNAF bodies. And CNAF isn't going to waste good bodies on a job that doesn't play well at the board.

 

[BACONATOR]

Agreed. If all it is is standing TAO that billet isn't going to make any officer, brown or black shoe, any career money. So there's no incentive for the SWOs to send their guys there. Therefore it's CNAF's job to get it manned with CNAF bodies. And CNAF isn't going to waste good bodies on a job that doesn't play well at the board.

True but you don't need 12 TAOs with only a few collaterals. You could get away with 6 for a good watch rotation (not counting new guys spinning up while other guys are leaving) and give out the DIVO jobs of the few big divisions and other stuff (dept sec mgr, other taskers/etc)

 

[Pags]

True but you don't need 12 TAOs with only a few collaterals. You could get away with 6 for a good watch rotation (not counting new guys spinning up while other guys are leaving) and give out the DIVO jobs of the few big divisions and other stuff (dept sec mgr, other taskers/etc)

12?!?! 2hrs of watch a day? Or are a bunch of them UIs? Even then 6 qualified TAOs means that each person is standing 4hrs of watch a day. I'd say you could get by with 3 or 4 especially if the only thing you're doing is standing TAO. On my LHD we had 3 TAOs for awhile; guys were doing five and dimes in addition to DH duties.

 

[BACONATOR]

12?!?! 2hrs of watch a day? Or are a bunch of them UIs? Even then 6 qualified TAOs means that each person is standing 4hrs of watch a day. I'd say you could get by with 3 or 4 especially if the only thing you're doing is standing TAO. On my LHD we had 3 TAOs for awhile; guys were doing five and dimes in addition to DH duties.

Yup. We went from 5 qualified TAOs on our WESTPAC to 12 by the end. But a couple of those were the ubiquitous "paper qual" types by SWOs/LDOs who would never stand the watch. The requirement for that ridiculous number is self-induced. A number of us resigned immediately inside of 12, a handful of others came as FOSes waiting on #2, and so the 12 dropped to like 6 by the time I left with a few more months from PRDs. There will only be 2 TAOs for the next underway who have seen an underway on the ship previously.