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CAL FIRE

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
I think K-Max would be a better platform for water drops than MQ-8 would be.

FWIW, all of the Ca ANG MQ-9s are doing firespotting and tracking. They're really busy fulfilling their Title 32 mission. And the Ca NG helo dudes have been doing some insane evacuation missions.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Threadjack: Do EDOs work on the RDT&E of UAS platforms, or do AEDOs fill that role, or both, or neither?

I doubt it. There would have to be a ton of AI and ML built into its little "robo-brain" to factor-in the WX, altitude deconfliction with other aircraft, rising smoke/heat that could toast the airframe or otherwise affect flight characteristics, power lines, all the things a human pilot must do. You would want the RDT&E team to have experience and expertise in "swarm"-type drone programming so that multiple aircraft could work in concert without running into each other or impede others operating in the airspace (e.g. manned platforms). Smart people are maybe already making these things a reality.
Depends on the UAS. MQ-8 has shipboard components that pull in NAVSEA and NAVWAR. But the majority of the engineering for MQ-8 is led by NAVAIR so AEDOs and the rest of the cast of characters that make up a PMA (or PMS).
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Threadjack: Do EDOs work on the RDT&E of UAS platforms, or do AEDOs fill that role, or both, or neither?

I doubt it. There would have to be a ton of AI and ML built into its little "robo-brain" to factor-in the WX, altitude deconfliction with other aircraft, rising smoke/heat that could toast the airframe or otherwise affect flight characteristics, power lines, all the things a human pilot must do. You would want the RDT&E team to have experience and expertise in "swarm"-type drone programming so that multiple aircraft could work in concert without running into each other or impede others operating in the airspace (e.g. manned platforms). Smart people are maybe already making these things a reality.

Some of that exists already, some doesn't. The trick is to have the right kind of sensors to do what you want it to do, and the right kind of maps loaded so it knows where it is.

If you can load the right level of DTED and CHUM, you don't really need much in the way of ground avoidance tech (laser altimeters work, though how effective in fire are they? I'm not sure). The rest of the deconfliction plan is pretty standard. Laterally and vertically is prefered, but you need at least one.

The nice thing is that the dudes flying it are going to be in radio contact with everyone.

I'm not sure you could do the SoCal CalFire special- take the pool water from someone's backyard- but I'm sure you could dip out of lake Elsinore without too much trouble.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Hair Warrior, know your audience. Pags has some specific insight to the program, given who he works/worked for.



FS is not autonomous. It's controlled by an operator, via a point and click interface (perhaps with some upgrades since the B). That said, it's interesting to watch some of the fire-bombing videos from years past, especially when a Guard aircraft is tasked with operations. They don't do it alone, cold. They tend to have a "FAC" they follow in to learn the approach, terrain, and technique of that particular location.

It's interesting to hear Brett mention he knows of UAS already being used. I don't think it's a stretch to learn that, but I can imagine there being some specific "tactics" to make UAS effective, for the various reasons that HW mentions (above in my quote).
None of the platforms currently in use are what you would consider autonomous. I’ll have to do a little digging to find out exactly what systems are being used, but I presume they are all purpose built to deliver retardant. They’re also used to do the equivalent of firefighting ISR, with a variety of sensors.
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
Threadjack: Do EDOs work on the RDT&E of UAS platforms, or do AEDOs fill that role, or both, or neither?

It's mostly an AEDO gig.

Depends on the UAS. MQ-8 has shipboard components that pull in NAVSEA and NAVWAR. But the majority of the engineering for MQ-8 is led by NAVAIR so AEDOs and the rest of the cast of characters that make up a PMA (or PMS).

@Hair Warrior as mentioned above, it's dependent upon the system. Most of the EDO (14XX) types who are working on NAVAIR projects are either attached to CVN programs or working on Tomahawks and similar subsystems. I'll caveat with the fact that EDOs end up in weird places working on strange projects. There is likely one bumping around doing UAS stuff exclusively but he's not any typical career path.

Hard to answer without knowing more specifics. The brain in the B and the C is the same because they're designed to both fly the same missions. Neither were designed to fly fire fighting missions. Frankly, from my limited understanding of how firebombing is done it's much more like CAS. MQ-8 was designed to hang out and be an ISR platform.

I'm not sure how much I can talk about on a public forum. I will say that I got to talk to the Grumman contractors who were big muckety-mucks and they told me that I was wrong and must have been seeing things when I expressed concerns and asked questions about certain faults in the system. For a program that was supposedly so high profile, everyone on the NAVAIR and Grumman side seemed pretty nonchalant about losing a Fire Scout on every single deployment.
 

ABMD

Bullets don't fly without Supply
But how many guys get Broncos and Turbo Stoofs?

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42%...
 

ABMD

Bullets don't fly without Supply
Not from the West Coast and never visited California. It seems fires are fairly common occurrence, does the state invest in preventative measures to limit the spread of fires? (i.e. remote water towers, man made lakes/holding ponds, fire breaks in forested areas, etc.)
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Not from the West Coast and never visited California. It seems fires are fairly common occurrence, does the state invest in preventative measures to limit the spread of fires? (i.e. remote water towers, man made lakes/holding ponds, fire breaks in forested areas, etc.)
Or allowing land/property owners to clear brush and do controlled burns? Uh, no . . . The state pushes the whole “Man made climate change” narrative hard. But they have prevented common sense mitigation measures for decades.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Or allowing land/property owners to clear brush and do controlled burns? Uh, no . . . The state pushes the whole “Man made climate change” narrative hard. But they have prevented common sense mitigation measures for decades.

yep, the government can allow things that would prevent/limit fires if it would hinder their narrative. I don't think they understand fires are natural and if the forest are managed it is healthy by clearing out brush.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
An old friend of mine (SH-3 & SH-60B Aircrewman & Rescue Swimmer) sent me these pictures of the contributions CAL FIRE is making with the fires out there. Apparently the new H-60 Firehawk is quite the aircraft.
Pretty interesting seeing iPad with ForeFlight attached to center wind screen panel.
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
Well, I mean...did you technically "lose" it if it was strapped to the side of the ship, floating in the water? It just needed a little rice and a hair dryer.

Well, on my first deployment we were able to hoist it back on board via the boat davit. On my second deployment, it crashed off of a North African beach somewhere. We got put into River City for over a month because Lord forbid someone mention we lost a Fire Scout. Meanwhile, the locals had posted videos all over YouTube of the evil American helicopter drone being yeeted from the sky by Allah Himself and all of the wreckage that they recovered.


We lost one on each of my two deployments. Another was lost on the ship's final deployment. Every one of my friends on all of the Fire Scout FFGs lost one on deployment. So between 2012 and 2015, there were about 7 that were lost. The reasons were the same as well regarding the blades and control algorithms/systems. If they haven't improved things for the charlie model, then they'll likely experience the same issues and failure rate.
 
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