Racism in the Military

[Gonzo08]

I get the point he was trying to make. But clearly he is not any of those people or he wouldn't be where he is now. He should have chosen his analogs better. All those identified refused to follow lawful orders, and/or put themselves in a position to attract police contact. Of course poor Tamir may have simply not understood the seriousness of the encounter.

Jfc @wink, the point is that if any of those people were white, they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Why do you have to take something this black career service member says and immediately come up with a way to belittle his argument? There's always a "yeah but..."

 

[HAL Pilot]

WOW

Are you joking or you’re actually being serious?

Wink is right, they put themselves in the position to attract police attention. The Chief Master Sargent of the Air Force would not have put himself in the situation and if he found himself there, he would have reacted to the police in a manner of cooperation.

Wink didn’t say if the attention the proper attention or an overreaction. It was obviously a police overreaction. That is a whole different thing and it needs to be addressed / fixed.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Jfc @wink, the point is that if any of those people were white, they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. Why do you have to take something this black career service member says and immediately come up with a way to belittle his argument? There's always a "yeah but..."

How did being black affect the outcome for Michael Brown or George Floyd? In both cases the police were there because they were responding to a 911 call reporting a crime that was just committed by those men. Both then resisted arrest, to differing degrees. What happened to George Floyd is terrible but they were both dealing with the police because of their actions not because they were black.

As far as “if they were white they wouldn’t have been in that position in the first place”, google Daniel Shaver and Tony Timpa. White privilege didn’t keep them alive.

 

[Brett327]

put themselves in a position to attract police contact.

Right... by being black.

If you dismiss that statement, then you're living in a bubble. Watch this black off-duty FBI agent get harassed and cuffed by a couple of asshole cops because he "looked like" a suspect they were after... I.E., the only criteria they used was that he was black and male. You can tell that at least one of these guys was ready to throw down. That is the kind of behavior that gets people killed. That is what these protests are about. Thankfully, this incident was defused, but it never should have happened.

Wink, as a former quasi LEO, if you're not embarrassed by the actions of these clowns, then you're part of the problem.

 

[Brett327]

What is so strong about it?

Do you disagree with any of what he said?

 

[FinkUFreaky]

Right... by being black.

If you dismiss that statement, then you're living in a bubble. Watch this black off-duty FBI agent get harassed and cuffed by a couple of asshole cops because he "looked like" a suspect they were after... I.E., the only criteria they used was that he was black and male. You can tell that at least one of these guys was ready to throw down. That is the kind of behavior that gets people killed. That is what these protests are about. Thankfully, this incident was defused, but it never should have happened.

Wink, as a former quasi LEO, if you're not embarrassed by the actions of these clowns, then you're part of the problem.

The FBI agent, getting handcuffed, didn't seem to be trying to diffuse it either? I didn't hear him saying "I'm an FBI agent" I heard a lot of MF bombs dropped, not by the cops. It almost looked like he intended to get handcuffed by not being cooperative? And that had he handled things differently, that video would not be what it is.

Of course, his goal may have been to show the difference between what it means to be a black person versus a white person. In that case, he may have been successful. I imagine a white FBI agent that matched a profile for a recent crime, and refused to show their ID, and threatened the cops ("take my cuffs off, I'll take out both you MFrs") would be treated somewhat similarly.

And if a "Jake", isn't racist, then what is?

 

[Hair Warrior]

There aren’t a lot of details about the George Floyd case prior to the police showing up, but one thing that was reported in the news was that a store owner suspected Floyd tried to buy something with a counterfeit $20 bill.

There is a decent chance that Floyd - like anyone who has paid for something in cash - had no idea the bill was counterfeit. He could easily have been paid with a counterfeit bill by someone else, and tried to use it unknowingly. Hell, if you’re short on money and trying to feed a family but you realize you’ve been paid by someone with money that doesn’t look quite right, you might have no choice but to try to spend it regardless.

This doesn’t excuse counterfeiters or those who knowingly try to launder fake notes into the money supply at large scale. I also don’t blame the store owner for calling the police - maybe it’s store policy to do so, and they can’t feed their own families if they routinely accept counterfeit money that a bank won’t deposit later.

My point is that I can’t jump to the conclusion that George Floyd even committed a crime, though, or “deserved” police scrutiny. Some of the fakes are very good and they do exist in circulation. I don’t pay for much in cash but I’ve probably touched a counterfeit bill at some point in my life, unknowingly. If so, I must have spent it. I sure as shit don’t inspect each bill like a paranoid jerk when someone hands cash to me. Tragic and sad how quickly something so small - and possibly innocent - turned out so wrong and unjust for Mr. Floyd.

 

[Brett327]

I didn't hear him saying "I'm an FBI agent"

If that's your take away, then the point has sailed way over your head.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

If that's your take away, then the point has sailed way over your head.

Apparently... Thanks again for quoting a very small portion of my post and claiming that as my "take away"

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Right... by being black.

If you dismiss that statement, then you're living in a bubble. Watch this black off-duty FBI agent get harassed and cuffed by a couple of asshole cops because he "looked like" a suspect they were after... I.E., the only criteria they used was that he was black and male. You can tell that at least one of these guys was ready to throw down. That is the kind of behavior that gets people killed. That is what these protests are about. Thankfully, this incident was defused, but it never should have happened.

Wink, as a former quasi LEO, if you're not embarrassed by the actions of these clowns, then you're part of the problem.

It would be nice to see if there is video from the initial contact, if their only description was a tall black male then they are just randomly picking people and IMO racial profiling, if the description was a tall black slender male wearing a red shirt and gray pants, then that is pretty descriptive, and it if was me that had that description I would explain that that is the description we have and you fit the description. They also said on the video the person they were looking for had a warrant, so they had to have had a name of the individual been looked for, asking for ID to eliminate him had he fit a specific description should not have been an issue.

What gets me is that they teach deescalation tactics to all LE, neither side utilized their training, and the actions continued to escalate the situation.

well, turns out the guy was not actually and FBI agent according to Reuters.

Fact check: Man detained in Rochester, Minnesota is not an FBI agent

Correction June 2, 2020: The verdict of this check has been updated to remove the term "wrongfully". The man the video was briefly detained by police in a case of mistaken identity.

www.reuters.com

 

[Gonzo08]

What gets me is that they teach deescalation tactics to all LE, neither side utilized their training, and the actions continued to escalate the situation.

I agree with what you've said about description, maybe we'll never know. But one was operating in a professional capacity, the other was (as far as we know) minding his own fucking business, as is his right as an American citizen. It's not incumbent on him to make his LEO status known.

"Yeah, but...."

 

[wink]

Right... by being black.

If you dismiss that statement, then you're living in a bubble. Watch this black off-duty FBI agent get harassed and cuffed by a couple of asshole cops because he "looked like" a suspect they were after... I.E., the only criteria they used was that he was black and male. You can tell that at least one of these guys was ready to throw down. That is the kind of behavior that gets people killed. That is what these protests are about. Thankfully, this incident was defused, but it never should have happened.

Wink, as a former quasi LEO, if you're not embarrassed by the actions of these clowns, then you're part of the problem.

Look Brett, I have been through hours and hours of implicit bias training required of my agency when I did the hobby cop thing. I not only have a very accurate moral compass a formal training program thought to improve on it. You can assume all you want based on my following answer. I don't care. We don't really know each other. If we had a couple beers over two hours to discuss, then I'd give your opinion of me more weight.

If you are referring to the "clowns" in the video, no I am not embarrassed for them. I don't know where you got it or the back story. I don't know how you are so certain he was approached just because he was black. Maybe the suspect was the same height in a red T shirt. I don't know. That isn't making excuses. I am simply not assume facts I can not know and that determines how you understand the actions in the video. If you know for certain the actual description the officers had to work with, let me know. Or are we playing the same game the FBI Agent did?

What I do know is the FBI agent refused to cooperate and even baited them. He showed no interest in defusing the situation by telling them who he is or offering his creds, let alone any professional courtesy. I submit someone seeing no fault with the Agent is making excuses for him. No one in good conscious can say he did not contribute to being cuffed. He resisted the lawful authority of the cops and they did not take him to the ground, Tase him or beat him up. The actual custody actions look fine to me. White guys and even women go to the ground when they tense up and resist like he did. That is an acceptable tactic. It is not being thrown to the ground. A controlled takedown is usually safer for both parties. Yet the officers avoided that tactic. The interview was as respectful as it could be for someone calling you names, not answering and evading questions. I would not be surprised if this FBI Agent was counseled by his supervisors about his actions that night. If the officers actually had no description indicating the Agent was a likely suspect, I am betting they too would have got counseling. That would have been the right thing. But then I do not know what information they had. Since accusing someone of racism in our society is worse then an accusation of pedophilia, I prefer to have more evidence then this video. But since I know too many people are experts in remote viewing and analysis of another's morality I expect hate. That is fine. Making unfair unsubstantiated conclusions about someone, is a blight on the individual drawing those conclusions, not the unfairly accused, just as bigoted thoughts and actions based purely on race are.

edit. So the dude was not a FBI Agent. Good thing. The reputation of the FBI has not been sullied by this dudes actions. My opinion on the encounter stands.

 

[Brett327]

Apparently... Thanks again for quoting a very small portion of my post and claiming that as my "take away"

Let's review...

• The guy getting harassed and illegally detained and cuffed should have been the one to deescalate.
• The guy getting harassed and illegally detained and cuffed should have told them he was an FBI agent.
• The guy getting harassed and illegally detained and cuffed should have used more polite language in the presence of the police.
• The guy getting harassed and illegally detained and cuffed shouldn't have tried to teach these corrupt cops a lesson by exposing their corruption.

Did I miss any of the nuance in your post?

 

[Brett327]

Words

Confirming my original take, you're living in a bubble, and you're part of the problem.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I agree with what you've said about description, maybe we'll never know. But one was operating in a professional capacity, the other was (as far as we know) minding his own fucking business, as is his right as an American citizen. It's not incumbent on him to make his LEO status known.

"Yeah, but...."

If you are minding your own business but fit the description enough that the officer has reasonable suspicion, then they can detain you and if they can detain you then you need to supply ID.

Now if you detain someone based on reasonable suspicion you better be able to support that in a court of law.