A7 midair wreckage found 37 years later

[MasterBates]

I can think of two guys who got the kiss of death from two different mishaps in my last squadron alone.

One was a ground mishap that they (AMB) really, REALLY reached on to be able to assign a causal factor beyond "don't underestimate the ability of an ADAN to hook up a fresh water hose to a salt water spigot".

From my experience dealing with Tailhook, knowing a fair amount of Jet dudes, and having been Hummer and Helo guy..

VFA/VAQ and VA/VF/VS are/were far more forgiving of mistakes in the air that result in bent/lost airframes. Whe I was a H2P, my HAC got his balls hammered for hitting a seagull.. In the GCA pattern. In actual IMC. For not "Seeing and Avoiding". Seriously. And all that was was a busted windshield.

 

[Brett327]

Maybe Paddles is onto something. In fact, I'm starting to put some other pieces together that explains a lot about why certain communities (and some of their people) are the way they are.

 

[Catmando]

Would a SWO who put a dent into a surface or sub-surface vessel expect the same promotion possibilities as an aviator who dented or even lost an aircraft?
Stated another way, has NavAir become closer to NavSea?

 

[helolumpy]

You're writing off the possibility of someone who was an otherwise fine officer making a single airmanship mistake and getting tanked on their FITREP as a result.

Is it possible that an aviator only has one single airmanship mistake which causes a mishap gets a negative comment in his FitRep? I would say it is possible.
Is it possible that someone gets a DUI the only time they have a little too much to drink and get behind the wheel? Yes, it's possible too.

 

[Gatordev]

From my experience dealing with Tailhook, knowing a fair amount of Jet dudes, and having been Hummer and Helo guy..

Just keep in mind that when you say you're a "helo guy," you're a guy from one community, at one squadron, on one coast (forgetting your civie time for the moment). That doesn't mean every helo experience matches your own.

That said, I do agree that some communities, and sometimes it's just some front offices, do like to make bigger deals out of things than are necessary. Although some times it seems like it's because they just don't have all the facts and someone is afraid to bring it to their attention.

 

[Flash]

Unless there has been serious negligence involved on the part of the crew I haven't seen anyone get their career ended for a mishap. I haven't followed everyone's career to see if they made CO but they didn't get shitcanned like some who did really stupid things got either eased out or just plain fired.

And if you do happen to be in a mishap don't talk shit about what you should have done to cover up your screwup at the O Club in front of a bunch of COs and XOs. Not good form.

 

[Renegade One]

Shit happens...even to the best guys or gals. Skippers pretty much know who to throw back in the cockpit and who to lean on. Admittedly, I think, some tightening of the reins by the system has transpired in the last several decades. Probably some good reasons for it...but, as with most things, always some "unintended consequences".

 

[Pugs]

Unless there has been serious negligence involved on the part of the crew I haven't seen anyone get their career ended for a mishap.

You missed the point. He screwed up. Dear god a lt(jg) screwed up and swapped paint and created an artificial reef shaped like an A-7. Today that's game over (and has been in my 25 years of experience). Is that is what is best for the service? My answer is generally no. Mistakes, for people that are potential leaders, create growth opportunities. We learn, we move on and create opportunities for our more junior people to learn from our mistakes.

You decide to do an Improve airshow in front of the pope on main street. Ummm game over.

 

[helolumpy]

. Today that's game over (and has been in my 25 years of experience)..

I realize that for every rule there is an exception, but I've seen folks who were the causal factor (pilot error) of a Class A not only get back into the aircraft but recover from the mishap (during DH) tour and screen for command.
While I will agree that this is a very rare case, I've seen a few folks lose aircraft and still screen for command.
I was in a squadron where one pilot taxied his helo into another spinning helo in daytime. He survived and went on to command a fleet squadron and then get bonus command.

 

[Brett327]

I'd be interested in MB's perspective on this issue.

 

[MasterBates]

My perspective? I've seen guys get the soft kill for it. I've seen a community anointed water walker fuck a Bravo up BAD (rolled it over) and do OK.. But he had orders and high water FITREP in hand when the Mishap happened.

I think you should be able to make mistakes, provided you were not flagrantly breaking NATOPS or other rules. However, in today's zero tolerance culture.. I've only seen one do OK after fucking the poodle.

Like Gator said earlier, I only know what I saw in my squadrons. The guys who I saw get fucked, got fucked so by a CO who wanted to be seen "doing something" so he can show higher he was doing shit.

I've seen guys get career kills that were earned through shitty airmanship or headwork, but those came out in the post mishap FNAEB with loss of flight status. As it should be.

 

[Flash]

You missed the point. He screwed up. Dear god a lt(jg) screwed up and swapped paint and created an artificial reef shaped like an A-7. Today that's game over (and has been in my 25 years of experience). Is that is what is best for the service? My answer is generally no. Mistakes, for people that are potential leaders, create growth opportunities. We learn, we move on and create opportunities for our more junior people to learn from our mistakes........

I didn't miss the point, him screwing up wasn't serious negligence in my opinion. Doing a prohibited maneuver, ignoring EPs or blatantly breaking the rules is negligence, what he did wasn't negligent but simply pilot error. I have seen a few guys walk or limp away from a Class A that was their fault and continue flying. Has it always happened that way? No, but I have seen it happen a few times.

 

[TheLastStarfighter11]

Ok, I know a guy in the strike community that as a student had a Class A in the T45 on landing (his fault) and only survived because his seat was pinned. (his fault). Went on to drop his gear in a hornet above the number (not his fault?) Going further, in his shore tour, knowingly completed a cross country after discovering a bird strike on the first leg (3rd FNAEB) and STILL screened for DH on first look. So, is the group saying the system worked as advertised, or something is afoul?

 

[Recovering LSO]

You missed the point. He screwed up. Dear god a lt(jg) screwed up and swapped paint and created an artificial reef shaped like an A-7. Today that's game over (and has been in my 25 years of experience).

Still flying.

Pretty sure he's still flying.

These are just two examples. You are going to get tossed for making a sexually inappropriate comment before you will for crashing an airplane. THAT is today's reality. If MB's been in communities / squadrons that crucified guys for hitting birds..... I have to believe there's a lot more to the story that is probably relevant....

 

[Recovering LSO]

Ok, I know a guy in the strike community that as a student had a Class A in the T45 on landing (his fault) and only survived because his seat was pinned. (his fault). Went on to drop his gear in a hornet above the number (not his fault?) Going further, in his shore tour, knowingly completed a cross country after discovering a bird strike on the first leg (3rd FNAEB) and STILL screened for DH on first look. So, is the group saying the system worked as advertised, or something is afoul?

What year was this?