NSS Facts

[squorch2]

The wings are as much to blame for passing the trash as CNATRA... I personally know of a pilot who was recommended for FNAEB after 4 (!) SODs in the FRS, only to be given right back on orders from the commodore.

Also, due to the way that MPTS is applied in advanced squadrons it's easier for marginal studs to squeak through.

 

[squorch2]

With the fiscal restraints that we face I can not imagine future capacity to retrain, retrain, and retrain some more as we may have done in the past. BUT, those same fiscal issues just might make it that much harder to throw the towel in on a guy...?

This.

It's far cheaper to tell the other folks in fleet squadrons that they have to suck up the hard jobs/flights/etc. because Tweedledee can't get his shit together than to either FNAEB and gap the spot entirely or attrite in Primary/Advanced and "waste" the money.

 

[Recovering LSO]

4 (!) SODs in the FRS, .

That's it? Wish I was joking.

 

[Swanee]

Also, due to the way that MPTS is applied in advanced squadrons it's easier for marginal studs to squeak through.

Do you care of expound on this one a little bit sir?

 

[Gatordev]

The wings are as much to blame for passing the trash as CNATRA... I personally know of a pilot who was recommended for FNAEB after 4 (!) SODs in the FRS, only to be given right back on orders from the commodore.

SODs (can we just call them Downs, please?) are a whole thread unto themselves. I think the number of Downs that are "too much" or "normal" varies over time within any given FRS. One, maybe two weren't unheard of when I was a stud, but more was definitely an indicator, but that isn't always the case. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just my observation.

Also, due to the way that MPTS is applied in advanced squadrons it's easier for marginal studs to squeak through.

Same thing happened in Primary. The potentially positive thing with guys coming out of Primary was that often the light came on in the HTs. Statistically, that doesn't seem to be the case going from HTs to FRS. Again, my observation.

 

[squorch2]

Do you care of expound on this one a little bit sir?

Sure.

So MPTS was designed by the Air Force to eliminate subjective grading. (Bear with me here.) CTS is the standard, which is why you see 4s as MIF towards the end of stages. Here's the rub: what constitutes a 3 for a particular maneuver? How about a 5? (2 is pretty easy, and 2s are rare.) MPTS defines 3s, and 5s a bit loosely and gives IPs a good bit of wiggle room as to when to give them and when to withhold them. So what you actually end up with is the old "average" system - except under MPTS you get more allowable UNSATs and an unlimited number of double-below "marginal" flights. (SMS notwithstanding, because SMS is worthless.)

How could this be fixed? Well, it's slowly changing as the current generation of IPs dealt with MPTS all throughout flight school - but they did so when it was literally being applied as 4 = "average," so scores were skewed relative to how studs actually performed. I think in the future you'll start to see more "proper" application of MPTS - or you'll see it go by the wayside as the Navy/MC says "fuck this shit."

"But squorch," you say, "what about NSS? Isn't there a 35 NSS cutoff?" Yes and no. MPTS itself has no provision for automatic attrition of <35 NSSs - the lowest 7% of studs - but it does provide for command-directed and wing-level reviews of such students. I've only seen one Navy guy like that attrite and his attitude was extremely shitty. Contrast that with Marines, who immediately go to the MATSG CO for finishing with <35 NSS. When Redman was MATSG CO, I did not see any Marines with low NSSs wing, and I fully agree with that philosophy.

Unfortunately, as RLSO alluded to, fiscal constraints allow for a limited number of attrites at each level of training, thereby making everything dependent on earlier and earlier screening. This is the rationale behind programs like IFS and the emphasis on technical majors at ROTC school - weed out the non-hackers early and you can reduce attrition rates, thereby saving money? Except it's still hard to effectively screen folks that early for aviation aptitude, and sometimes we just don't know that you suck until you're thrown behind hundreds of horsepower and told "okay, you have the controls."

Combine the more squishy nature of MPTS with current fiscal realities and the pressures of ever smaller tolerances in training flow and you get what I talked about to start with: it's easier these days for marginal students to squeak through.

 

[squorch2]

SODs (can we just call them Downs, please?) are a whole thread unto themselves. I think the number of Downs that are "too much" or "normal" varies over time within any given FRS. One, maybe two weren't unheard of when I was a stud, but more was definitely an indicator, but that isn't always the case. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just my observation.

Completely agree on the variances of "acceptable" downs, but at that time in HSC-2 one or two downs was widely considered the limit. Four was right out, yet here we are.

 

[fc2spyguy]

There's some feedback being generated and being sent back to CNATRA from the fleet side. Several incidents of low HT (and VT, I think) NSS guys struggling (surprise!) in the RAG. What will become of it, I have no idea. But I have my suspicions.

I know of two guys, both of which had multiple failures through the VTs and HTs. Both were pushed through the HTs and graduated w/i three weeks of if not in the same winging. One of them is now a SWO, the other is a sous chef in Washington from what I last heard. The last one there put a tail wheel through a pylon. I would like to note that the last one also, on his last flight, had troubles going through the start up checklist. The instructor asked 'do you want to fail this flight?' he replied 'I can't fail anymore flights or I'm out.'

 

[Gatordev]

... the other is a sous chef in Washington from what I last heard.

Was his name Stinky, by any chance?

I would like to note that the last one also, on his last flight, had troubles going through the start up checklist.

The other day I was starting up with a guy I've known since I was a JO (so very low stress). I couldn't find the ECS. Some bastard had moved it on me. Turns out there's some value (having almost 2K in a different series) to having a warm up flight after not flying for more than 60 days.

 

[wlawr005]

Great explanation...

Maybe this follows along with what you're talking about; most of the people going through school with me right now, including myself, agree that 5's exist in some mystical land with unicorns and fairies. We get most of them in the sim, and I pull the occasional one in the brief or for headwork. I haven't seen anybody I know get a five for a manuever (spin, POS, landing, loop, etc). Maybe everybody I know is just within standards on their best days, but I would like to meet the guy that IS getting 5's.

 

[Jim123]

There's some feedback being generated and being sent back to CNATRA from the fleet side. Several incidents of low HT (and VT, I think) NSS guys struggling (surprise!) in the RAG. What will become of it, I have no idea. But I have my suspicions.

The names and faces change but the stories repeat themselves. That's what I think will become of it.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Was his name Stinky, by any chance?

Not me... You've got to put in your time on the line to make Sous Chef. I might be able to be hired as a line cook at best...

To counter spyguy's point, I knew a dude who graduated from HTs with a suboptimal (<35) NSS, got more pink sheets known to man, and the only reason why he was retained went on behind closed doors between him and CNATRA. Yes. That's how many pink sheets he got.

He's a 53 WTI and Air Mission Commander now.

I also know a guy that had an almost 60 NSS in primary, and is now a civilian, after having never been more than a HAC, and had to be selectively scheduled with more experienced guys...

 

[fc2spyguy]

Not me... You've got to put in your time on the line to make Sous Chef. I might be able to be hired as a line cook at best...

To counter spyguy's point, I knew a dude who graduated from HTs with a suboptimal (<35) NSS, got more pink sheets known to man, and the only reason why he was retained went on behind closed doors between him and CNATRA. Yes. That's how many pink sheets he got.

He's a 53 WTI and Air Mission Commander now.

I also know a guy that had an almost 60 NSS in primary, and is now a civilian, after having never been more than a HAC, and had to be selectively scheduled with more experienced guys...

True, I'm sure there are plenty of anecdotal stories on both sides of the coin. Which, pretty much goes to the entire theme of this thread. The NSS really doesn't mark the overall potential of a person. I would argue, as others already have though stated slightly different, it marks how quickly he'll realize that maximum potential.

 

[Recovering LSO]

By and large the examples used so far in this thread have been outliers - of which there have always been and always will be. For the large portion of students who fall between the two extremes (low NSS turned astronaut and high NSS turned pencil salesman), NSS is a good indicator of past and future performance through FLIGHT SCHOOL (I include the FRS in this breath). How someone does in the fleet rests on so many other variables outside of the cockpit.

 

[jtmedli]

Maybe this follows along with what you're talking about; most of the people going through school with me right now, including myself, agree that 5's exist in some mystical land with unicorns and fairies. We get most of them in the sim, and I pull the occasional one in the brief or for headwork. I haven't seen anybody I know get a five for a manuever (spin, POS, landing, loop, etc). Maybe everybody I know is just within standards on their best days, but I would like to meet the guy that IS getting 5's.

They'll start coming more often. They're hard to come by, but not impossible, in contacts. They do, however, exist.

I think I ended up with numerous (10 or more) 5's in forms and had a ton of them in RIs/NAV/LL flights. Just keep working hard and killing it and you'll get them eventually. I honestly think a lot of it had to do with the IPs feeling like they could trust me not to 'try to kill them' anymore.