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NSS Facts

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
Maybe this follows along with what you're talking about; most of the people going through school with me right now, including myself, agree that 5's exist in some mystical land with unicorns and fairies. We get most of them in the sim, and I pull the occasional one in the brief or for headwork. I haven't seen anybody I know get a five for a manuever (spin, POS, landing, loop, etc). Maybe everybody I know is just within standards on their best days, but I would like to meet the guy that IS getting 5's.

I got 5 or so 5s in contacts. One was for IGP reports. Guess I blew his mind with the sheer quantity and accuracy of my IGPs. I think I got 5 5's in one form flight, so yeah, just hang in there. Then when you get to jet school you won't feel good about yourself for at least the first six months.

For the record, I didn't get a single grade below MIF in primary, and I was just an average Joe in jet advanced most of the way. The light bulb did get to a dull roar near the end though which, strangely enough, is when I got my only down in all of flight school. Sometimes you have to go below the hard deck for a few seconds to take the shot.
 

navjack

K-Vegas
New-ish guy here-
wlawr, I feel ya. It's nice to hear others wondering where the 5's really do exist. I also would like to meet the 5's guy in contacts. The message was loud and clear from the mega-thread to forget about the voodoo of nss computation and just do as well as possible. When combining that with the common sense of reading the MPTS guide, it's pretty tough to figure out what to try to accomplish to get to a 5 level. I'm also reading loud and clear that shooting to beat the MIF as much as possible is a good way to get the best outcome. Once you get the first bunch of contact flight maneuver items pretty comfortable at a consistent 4 level with the "occasional" (read: random) 5, trying to do better on those 4's is tough. The 4's are nothing to sneeze at, but since we're talking about just doing your best at stuff in stead of trying to find the magic abacus hidden in stucon...

Example: For a 5 the MPTS says "greatly surpasses CTS" and talks about appropriate, smooth, corrections. The most useful part of the description is, "Performance is correct, efficient, and skillful." That's good, but pretty touchy-feely. For the 4 it mentions "...within CTS. Deviations outside CTS are allowed, provided they are brief, minor, and do not affect safety of flight." I have found in both sims and flights that being within CTS and never going out still gets you a 4.
Well, that and also not trying to kill yourself and the instructor. So that tells me the other parts of the 5 description come into play more.

I guess the question for the thread is aimed towards the experienced guys: Can you shed some light on what the difference actually is? Did you guys discover something describable that made the difference between "you did it" and "shit hot?" I get that there are Santa Clauses and Scrooges but maybe some real life examples can explain?
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
I had a primary instructor tell me that he would give a 5 if a student could do something as well as he could (or in some rare cases, better). It varies a little from IP to IP.
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
Exactly. It really doesn't matter if you think you 'did it' or if you think it was 'shit hot'. You get the grade that he gives you. If you're going to argue a grade because you thought you crushed the maneuver, stand by...

Fly your best airplane and let the rest fall into place.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I guess the question for the thread is aimed towards the experienced guys: Can you shed some light on what the difference actually is? Did you guys discover something describable that made the difference between "you did it" and "shit hot?" I get that there are Santa Clauses and Scrooges but maybe some real life examples can explain?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass when I ask this, I just can't remember if it's in this thread or not... Did you read through the entire thread and the others that talk about CTS? There was some discussion by several of us on what we used/still use, but I know the search engine isn't the most helpful.

A few thoughts... Sometimes I would fly with a stud that technically did everything within CTS and would rarely deviate outside it. When he/she would, it would be for some specific maneuver and not as a general trend. However, that same stud wouldn't be precise. Landing within 20 feet of centerline and "first third of the runway" is actually a pretty big window. If he/she landed 10 feet to the left one landing and then landed 10 feet to the right the next landing (or was 50 feet high then 50 feet low in the pattern) I wasn't really inclined to throw 5s at them. But if a stud was average in the pattern but consistently planted the plane in the same place, within CTS, that might be a 4 for pattern, 5 for landings. Strive for perfection while still enjoying the flight, and it helps. Strive for CTS (while still enjoying the flight) and expect 4s. There's nothing wrong with the latter, that's the standard, just don't get upset when you end up with a 40-something NSS.

Not sure if the T-6 still does the maneuver, but I will say that I got every one of my onwings except one, and multiple off-wing studs, to consistently get 5s on the ATS. CTS was 150' altitude loss and my personal criteria was 70' for a 5. I usually could get studs to only lose 50', and they'd walk away from a block with multiple 5s from me.
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
It would also really depend on the individual MIF. Getting a 5 for basic airwork is far different than getting a 5 for a barrel roll. The more experienced IPs know what is SH and what is expected by that point in the syllabus. CTS leaves room for the experience of the IP to make subjective judgements.
 

kmac

Coffee Drinker
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
A few thoughts... Sometimes I would fly with a stud that technically did everything within CTS and would rarely deviate outside it. When he/she would, it would be for some specific maneuver and not as a general trend. However, that same stud wouldn't be precise. Landing within 20 feet of centerline and "first third of the runway" is actually a pretty big window. If he/she landed 10 feet to the left one landing and then landed 10 feet to the right the next landing (or was 50 feet high then 50 feet low in the pattern) I wasn't really inclined to throw 5s at them. But if a stud was average in the pattern but consistently planted the plane in the same place, within CTS, that might be a 4 for pattern, 5 for landings. Strive for perfection while still enjoying the flight, and it helps. Strive for CTS (while still enjoying the flight) and expect 4s. There's nothing wrong with the latter, that's the standard, just don't get upset when you end up with a 40-something NSS.

Not sure if the T-6 still does the maneuver, but I will say that I got every one of my onwings except one, and multiple off-wing studs, to consistently get 5s on the ATS. CTS was 150' altitude loss and my personal criteria was 70' for a 5. I usually could get studs to only lose 50', and they'd walk away from a block with multiple 5s from me.

I second all of these comments.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Other, intangible things that go into 5s:

- halo effect (did you smoke the brief? Easier to get 5s, or at least not get 3s)
- are you repeating the maneuver? more repetition = less chance of a 5
- Do you fumble on the radios? Regardless of how good you fly, I bet you don't get many 5s...
- personality conflict: not gonna get as many 5s from dudes who don't get along with you as with dudes that you click with, everything else being equal.
- Do you show up reeking of BO? ZERO FIVES GIVEN THAT DAY

ETA: Reeking of BO is actually all too tangible.
 

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
I'm not trying to be a smart ass when I ask this, I just can't remember if it's in this thread or not... Did you read through the entire thread and the others that talk about CTS? There was some discussion by several of us on what we used/still use, but I know the search engine isn't the most helpful.

A few thoughts... Sometimes I would fly with a stud that technically did everything within CTS and would rarely deviate outside it. When he/she would, it would be for some specific maneuver and not as a general trend. However, that same stud wouldn't be precise. Landing within 20 feet of centerline and "first third of the runway" is actually a pretty big window. If he/she landed 10 feet to the left one landing and then landed 10 feet to the right the next landing (or was 50 feet high then 50 feet low in the pattern) I wasn't really inclined to throw 5s at them. But if a stud was average in the pattern but consistently planted the plane in the same place, within CTS, that might be a 4 for pattern, 5 for landings. Strive for perfection while still enjoying the flight, and it helps. Strive for CTS (while still enjoying the flight) and expect 4s. There's nothing wrong with the latter, that's the standard, just don't get upset when you end up with a 40-something NSS.

Not sure if the T-6 still does the maneuver, but I will say that I got every one of my onwings except one, and multiple off-wing studs, to consistently get 5s on the ATS. CTS was 150' altitude loss and my personal criteria was 70' for a 5. I usually could get studs to only lose 50', and they'd walk away from a block with multiple 5s from me.

I also second everything said above. Exactly the system I used and I gave copious 5's on ATS.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
For helo dudes, you should be able to score 5s galore on max load takeoffs, the equivalent of ATSs for fam work.
 

draad

Member
Keep in mind it also depends on the block. Many instructors in IJET/AJET it seems (I'm just an SNA) like to just grade MIF on every time regardless because the system IS so new. Also, the likelihood of a 3 or 5 varies a lot based on the current MIF on that block. I know for a fact that Sim instructors are somewhat monitored on how many 3s VS 5s they give out. So in the first block of RI sims in primary where you could get 3's without downing the event, it was common to see multiple 5s if you did well, as well as multiple 3s if you sucked. In the second block of RI sims, however, when MIF is 4, the instructors RARELY give a 5, simply because they try to give less 3s that will down a stud. Here in IJET, the Sim instructors were under the impression that our EP sims were weighted a LOT less than regular sims, so it was common to see 3s straight down the grade sheet, thus allowing the instructor more room to give out 5s to studs on other sims when he or she felt they deserved it. Finally, I know in primary the maximum number of 5s a sim instructor is allowed to give on any event is 5. I actually asked an instructor about this one and he confirmed it. The rest above is also confirmed from Sim instructors mouths. Keep in mind too that, you could have absolutely shit hot passes and get a 5 on the pattern at the end of the syllabus. If you took those same passes to contacts when the pattern is a 3, fat chance of gettting a 5 for it. Instructors simply will not give you a 5 when MIF is a 2/3 (with rare exceptions), but they will give you a 4.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor

This boils down to a misunderstanding of both CTS and MIF. Not a surprise when the system is relatively new. Even less of a surprise when you have a bunch of guys who "always did it this way."

MIF has nothing to do with CTS. CTS is very easy to identify. A 3 is pretty much as easy to identify. If MIF is a 3 and the stud meets CTS, it's a 4 (or a 5). Trying to make a pretty pattern on the grade sheet or playing games with numbers just screws with the way the system was designed (regardless of whether we agree with the system or not).

I've grown to appreciate CTS and even MIF, especially in a BA/A/AA system whose instruction is written poorly.
 
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