Then you have the multiple E2s that decided to enter KNIP tower pattern recently NORDO. "Aircraft 2 NM north of NAS Jacksonville Tower on Guard, switch 340.2".... and THEN they request the break when they get their radios squared away.
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Civilian Fields and Carrier Breaks
- Thread starter C420sailor
- Start date
I tell them I'll be doing 260 for acft weight. Some guys just do it figuring it's only a couple of knots above 250 and ATC radars see ground speed - i.e. a good tail wind.
Then again we have the guys that say "request high speed climb" and go 300 figuring it's HCF and they don't give a shit anyway.....
In the last few years there was a case where a four ship of P-51 Mustangs were leaving OSH from the EAA air show and heading home. It had become routine for this four ship to ask for a fly-by from the tower at Fond Du Lac on their way out, and it was granted by the tower there each year. That particular year a Chicago FSDO rep was driving by as the four ship made their pass and he wrote them up, tried to get their certificates suspended. The argument that the tower granted them permission did not waive the regs they were violating. It took the EAA stepping in and working with the Chicago FSDO to keep their certificates.
So, technically speaking, we are violating the regs every time we come into the break. Is it that the FAA simply looks the other way at military fields, or is there some form of LOA between Big Navy and the FAA?
We're not held to the 250KT rule if NATOPS maneuvers (like the break or section rendez-vous) require more. Similarly, the break is not considered "aerobatic" flight. We routinely climb out at 300. Could we do it at 250? Sure, but it gives guys trying to RDVS a little more breathing room, particularly for new guys in the RAG. Either way, I'm not aware of a specific LOA for it, but it's just SOP for us and I don't think the FAA cares or would have a leg to stand on if they did.
Brett
Like Brett said. Here at Oceana there is a agreement, or something that allows us to fly around at 300kts. This is to aid in visibility issues at slower airspeeds (over the nose). I know you can call ahead if going on the road and ask for higher airspeeds, or just ask approach when you get there. The break part is easy. Make sure to turn off your mode 3 at the initial. Then bring it.
Nope. NASs will have controlled airspace like any other towered airfield depending on their size. Whiting is a Class C and NS Norfolk is a Class D (shoehorned under KORF's Class C). Some fields might have a MOA or a Restricted Area nearby, or if they do weird stuff that they don't want others getting in the way of, like flight test, the airfield might be within a restricted area like Pax River or Edwards.
If your airplane's NATOPS manual tells you to do a maneuver at a certain speed, then you're exempt from the FAR for 250kts/10k speed rule. That comes from the first chapter in the OPNAV (along with exemptions for a handful of other things specific to military flying)- look under "1.2.3.1 FAR Exemptions." There is some more stuff in there but the long and short of it is mostly common sense.
Local memorandums of understanding and letters of agreement are usually good for keeping everybody involved (mostly your wing and the FAA) happy by rehashing the pertinent regs and spelling out exactly how the military fliers will play nice. The only part of that the aircrews normally have to care about are the course rules in their wing SOP and/or the air station air ops manual.
Local memorandums of understanding and letters of agreement are usually good for keeping everybody involved (mostly your wing and the FAA) happy by rehashing the pertinent regs and spelling out exactly how the military fliers will play nice. The only part of that the aircrews normally have to care about are the course rules in their wing SOP and/or the air station air ops manual.
A lot of what you're relaying on is the fact that most FAA controllers don't realize tactical jets can fly slow safely. That and the fact that as a "state" aircraft, you are not technically bound by the FARs anyway. But it is DoD policy to adhere to the FARs whenever possible. This is why you never tell the FAA your name - so the violation is sent to the Navy for them to figure out if they will pass it on to you or not. This is also why you can fly military aircraft without a civilian pilot license.
As Brett said, if NATOPS says you have to do 300 to fly the manuever, then the FARs allow this as it is now required for safety reasons. But to break speed limits for convince sake can get a violation thrown at the Navy if the FAA decides to do so. If this happens, chances are the Navy is then going to come looking for an explanation from you. In today's Navy, who knows how they'll react.
As Brett said, if NATOPS says you have to do 300 to fly the manuever, then the FARs allow this as it is now required for safety reasons. But to break speed limits for convince sake can get a violation thrown at the Navy if the FAA decides to do so. If this happens, chances are the Navy is then going to come looking for an explanation from you. In today's Navy, who knows how they'll react.
What is the stated reason for turning off the transponder at the initial other than not bothering the crap out of the controllers if you're bouncing? It's expedient for not letting big brother in on how fast you're really going, but I'm skeptical that that is actually the purpose.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Altitude for break. You can still get groundspeed off a primary only hit.
I believe that the "awsomeness" of high speed/low altitude in the break is way overrated. Formation integrity/uniformity and spacing/altitude downwind, whether breaking from echelon or diamond, are the hallmarks of a professional, e.g. "awesome" break.
At least that's how it was back in the middle ages!
BzB
I must be hanging around too many AF bases where neither of those goals are held in high regard
. "Fingertip" (parade) is avoided like the plague, airspeed is down at 250. You could probably get another bounce inside the fan-favorite "tac initial" overhead. Yet they can sure depart the field at 450 knots and get joined 20 miles later. Don't even ask about a diamond-break as someone would likely get arrested. meh, I like these guys and all, but seriously...
What is the "tac initial"?