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Women fliers honored 65 years after World War II service
- Thread starter Seafort
- Start date
So the standard for a Congressional Gold Medal is flying a bunch of ferry flights and target towing? I'm not disparaging the pioneer aspect of it all, but come on. Seems like some pandering is going on here. I think there are probably a lot of unrecognized combat pilots of the era.
The ceremony was pretty cool and very well designed according to my officemate. Her Aunt received it for her service as a WASP and the Air Force according to her put on a very nice event including individual pilot escorts for each of the Women and and a private medal ceremony. My officemate also brought in a cool ID card that they made for each of the recipients which had their time of service, service photo and a listing of their plane qualifications. The aunt had flown B-26s, B-17s, and various other planes in testing. Here's a link to her photos of the ceremony. http://picasaweb.google.com/jenauchterlonie/WASPCeremony#
Seafort
Made His Bed, Is Now Lying In It
These women were denied the opportunity to become combat pilots, and it's clear that they worked as instructors and helped train some of the very same unrecognised combat pilots you mention.
We did women one better with WAVES, although there was clearly still a double standard. The US Army Air Corps should have at least done the same as the Navy, but that's the perspective of a youngin.
I'm conflicted about the whole article and/or issue.
On the one hand, these women were pioneers. They were the first women to fly US military aircraft, the first female military flight instructors, etc. Good on them. But that's about all I can say. Maybe that's worthy of a congressional gold medal. I guess if the 1980 hockey team gets one, they can have one too. It doesn't mean all that much to me.
At the same time I don't buy the "they were an indispensable part of the war effort" argument. Did they free up male pilots to head into combat? Maybe. The army air corps produced something on the order of 190,000 new pilots during the war. So, somehow, just over a half percent of the pilots, who served in the air force were "indispensable"? What about the civilian men who performed the same function but couldn't fly in combat because they were too old or disqualified for some other reason? The way I see it, these ladies were civilian contractors, no more, no less. Sorry ladies, you took a fairly dangerous job for your day, got paid crap wages, and managed to serve your country in the process but you weren't in the military. What they got in return was a sense of accomplishment and the chance to fly some of the coolest aircraft in American history but I don't think that earns them "veteran" status.
On the one hand, these women were pioneers. They were the first women to fly US military aircraft, the first female military flight instructors, etc. Good on them. But that's about all I can say. Maybe that's worthy of a congressional gold medal. I guess if the 1980 hockey team gets one, they can have one too. It doesn't mean all that much to me.
At the same time I don't buy the "they were an indispensable part of the war effort" argument. Did they free up male pilots to head into combat? Maybe. The army air corps produced something on the order of 190,000 new pilots during the war. So, somehow, just over a half percent of the pilots, who served in the air force were "indispensable"? What about the civilian men who performed the same function but couldn't fly in combat because they were too old or disqualified for some other reason? The way I see it, these ladies were civilian contractors, no more, no less. Sorry ladies, you took a fairly dangerous job for your day, got paid crap wages, and managed to serve your country in the process but you weren't in the military. What they got in return was a sense of accomplishment and the chance to fly some of the coolest aircraft in American history but I don't think that earns them "veteran" status.
I'm not in favor of women in U.S. military combat units -- never have been -- never will be. I think we, as a country & a society can do better than send 'our women' to war. I am firmly in the camp that women should be able & willing to defend themselves -- but go to war?? I think not ...
War is hell.
BUT: I've always admired these ladies -- they are the stuff of which legends are made. Every time I see pictures of them (then) or see 'em (now) ... I'm constantly impressed with their appearance(s), their fitness, their mental acuity, and their basic SA.
I don't know what level of 'award' they are deserving of ... but I know one thing: they are 'babes' ... from the word: GO. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a jerk.
War is hell.
BUT: I've always admired these ladies -- they are the stuff of which legends are made. Every time I see pictures of them (then) or see 'em (now) ... I'm constantly impressed with their appearance(s), their fitness, their mental acuity, and their basic SA.
I don't know what level of 'award' they are deserving of ... but I know one thing: they are 'babes' ... from the word: GO. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a jerk.
BUT: I've always admired these ladies -- they are the stuff of which legends are made. Every time I see pictures of them (then) or see 'em (now) ... I'm constantly impressed with their appearance(s), their fitness, their mental acuity, and their basic SA.
I don't know what level of 'award' they are deserving of ... but I know one thing: they are 'babes' ... from the word: GO. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a jerk.
Agree completely.
Agree completely
markkyle66
Active Member
While working with Wings of Dreams I've talked one on one with quite a few of them and constantly find myself floored when I hear their stories. I remember one telling me she was sent to recieve instruction in the B-29 and the instructor absoulutely refused to cooperate with those "damn Wasp pilots"... long story short, she said she got her training. She also managed to get even, she married the instructor! Anyways, admirable women for sure! Wish the CNN clip had more footage of them and not those windbags introducing them.
Long story 'short'??? That's what she said ...
An-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-d-d-d-d-d!!!!! ... now we know WHY she 'got her training'.
So the standard for a Congressional Gold Medal is flying a bunch of ferry flights and target towing? I'm not disparaging the pioneer aspect of it all, but come on. Seems like some pandering is going on here. I think there are probably a lot of unrecognized combat pilots of the era.
The shame on the U.S. government in all this is that their service records were classified, sealed & unavailable to anyone for 50 years. They got no GI-Bill, no Veteran Preference, nothing! This isn't Josef Stalin's Russia (Hell, he gave his female fighter pilots medals!). Our government hid all evidence of their service for half a century. WTF!?
The shame on the U.S. government in all this is that their service records were classified, sealed & unavailable to anyone for 50 years. They got no GI-Bill, no Veteran Preference, nothing! This isn't Josef Stalin's Russia (Hell, he gave his female fighter pilots medals!). Our government hid all evidence of their service for half a century. WTF!?
+1 The article showed these women were definitely grateful for the Congressional medal, but I think the comment of the one that she just wanted to be able to get the flag on her coffin says it all. While these ladies didn't deploy, they did a dangerous job, and many went through the exact same training as their male military counterparts, but without any of the recognition for their service. Just because they didn't serve in combat doesn't mean they didn't provide honorable service to the military in a time of war.
Seafort
Made His Bed, Is Now Lying In It
And I am incapable of understanding that thought process because I have grown up in a family and a community where men and women may be physically different, but equal in all other ways. My mother is retired now, but she made more than my father when she was working. Why? Because although they are in the same field with the same job, she'd been doing it for twenty years, he has been doing it for ten. Seems right and proper she should be making a lot more than him, and have been promoted higher than him. And he never once had a problem with it. He is also a 24 year veteran of the USAF (was chagrined when I went Navy, poor man
), but there was never any question in his mind that his female colleagues were just as capable in battle as he was, and he passed that view onto me.These women should have been combat pilots. But again, I'm a product of a different era.
Hey !!! We're not talkin' about how much $$$$ your Mom made vs. your Dad or anyone else .... Yo' Momma' couldn't hump a pack and rifle over the Hindu Kush on her best day ... ever.
My comment was just an aside -- a qualifier ... an intro ... not an invitation to battle. I do not subscribe to the thinking that men & women are 'equal' in what it takes to prevail in combat. What can I say??? Unless of course ... you think combat is all about sittin' in an air conditioned space pushin' buttons. If that's really what you think .... then I think you're wrong as there IS a distinction. Only guys who have 'seen the elephant' can tell you about that ...
BUT, in any case: this thread is NOT going to degenerate into a men vs. women thread because some young man has a problem with women in/out of combat ... this thread (unless I'm missing something) is about WW2 WASPs getting their just reward ... and I don't mean 'mean ol' Hao'le WASPs', either. Irregardless of whether YOU started it or not (and thanks for starting it
) -- it's meant to be a tribute to THEM -- the WW2 WASPs ... 
A4sForever said:
And unless you think personal combat is what "it"'s all about, that simply isn't true. You admire their "fitness, mental acuity, and general SA" but think they can't prevail in combat because they can't ruck a rifle over the Kush? Well clearly the Navy needs some remedial rucking; I think ya'll's ACM skills are deteriorating for want of marching and shootin'.
No, but if it degenerates into one it's because you felt like you had to qualify your praise with your neanderthal opinion. Kudos to the young foo' for calling you out on it. Or do only mods rate to shoot off their opinion? The WASPS were recognized for their success in the face of parochialism such as yours; so the award and their place in history is very much about the men v women question.