New 3710.7U

[zippy]

To give you some idea this was a typical day for me on morning flightline in IERW

0340- wake up
0430- catch the bus to Cairns AAF (the AF gets to park their but not enough for the Army apparently and its our damn airfield)
0530- Initial Brief and morning Table Talk
0630- Aircraft issue, preflight, flight, debrief
1130- Earliest bus back to parking lot
1300- Academics
1830- academics over go home/tech lab

Rince repeat and continue for about 6 months. To add insult to injury we rotate weekly from morning to afternoon schedules which totally F's your sleep cycles up so the first about two days of Morning flightline get real interesting some times. My question was really simple, if you cant make the IP work/fly the same hours because of both his union contract and legal requirements how the hell are they making us do it.

Sounds like you gave the answer already when they established that the rules don't consider you a rated aviator and subject to your services crew rest requirements...

Your IPs sign on the "Blame stats here" (Aircraft Commander) line- That seems to be the difference in the eyes of your service.

 

[picklesuit]

Well, I have to agree with the instructors most of the time. Your schedule gives you an hour for shower/dinner/sex/Family Guy and another 8 hours for sleep...I don't see the problem.

If you ever really feel unsafe, have the balls to admit it, defend it, and go do something else with your day than flying. It works that way in the fleet, it works that way in flight school, and I have yet to see anyone crushed for backing out of a flight for legitimate reasons.

That being said, there WILL be times you push/pass 18 hours crew day, or 5 hours of preflight, or bust 8 hours crew rest. Then it becomes a judgement call. Thank goodness we are all mature responsible aviators who are able to make that call and stand by it either way...

Would you bust crew rest to go on a SAR mission? How about to go shoot down enemy tanks? To get eyes on a possibly hostile Chinese sub? How about busting crew rest to fly CAS on Marines desperately in need of backup in some shithole in Afghanistan? Would you bust crew rest to fly a 1.5 over American soil under radar control with a qualified instructor in the back seat?

Which one of these scenarios involves the most risk and which do you think requires the most "me time"?

To give you some idea this was a typical day for me on morning flightline in IERW

0340- wake up
0430- catch the bus to Cairns AAF (the AF gets to park their but not enough for the Army apparently and its our damn airfield)
0530- Initial Brief and morning Table Talk
0630- Aircraft issue, preflight, flight, debrief
1130- Earliest bus back to parking lot
1300- Academics
1830- academics over go home/tech lab

Rince repeat and continue for about 6 months. To add insult to injury we rotate weekly from morning to afternoon schedules which totally F's your sleep cycles up so the first about two days of Morning flightline get real interesting some times. My question was really simple, if you cant make the IP work/fly the same hours because of both his union contract and legal requirements how the hell are they making us do it.

The same type of rule applies to IPs because we know its unneccesarily dangerous to put them in that kind of work tempo doing something as inherently risky as teaching students to fly what is desperately trying to become a multimillion dollar one time use back hoe. However any time a student even brings up the words "crew rest requirements" its immediately smacked down with "suck it up pussy this is easier than what you'll do in the sandbox" or something similar. In that case if we aren't aircrew members than technically you're operating all our aircraft single pilot, and that gets into its own relm of rules (Single Pilot IFR anyone?).

 

[picklesuit]

Women who operate ejection seat equipped aircraft are grounded as soon as they become aware of their pregnancy.

That's just because Pickles and Ice Cream is hard to get out of the O2 mask!

 

[Lawman]

Well, I have to agree with the instructors most of the time. Your schedule gives you an hour for shower/dinner/sex/Family Guy and another 8 hours for sleep...I don't see the problem."?

Pickle, during the BWS phase I spent on average 2-3 hours planning the next days route and flight, believe me theres more to your duty day than whats on the printed schedule. The Brigade Crew Rest policy deams rest as X, you dont get to count time doing Y just because its not on the official schedule.

If you ever really feel unsafe, have the balls to admit it, defend it, and go do something else with your day than flying. It works that way in the fleet, it works that way in flight school, and I have yet to see anyone crushed for backing out of a flight for legitimate reasons. .

They attempted to throw a person out of flightschool for taking emergency leave because his wife had an issue with her high risk pregnancy. I dont think anybody outside of Ft Rucker can truly understand the current trend we are operating under. If you raise your hand to scratch your ass they will attempt to take it off. Why? Because they are absolutely commited to getting rid of "the bubble." You really want to be the first guy that goes before the Col as WO1/2Lt nobody to say you dont think you meet crew rest requirements when they already put it in a policy letter that it doesnt matter since your only a student.

That being said, there WILL be times you push/pass 18 hours crew day, or 5 hours of preflight, or bust 8 hours crew rest. Then it becomes a judgement call. Thank goodness we are all mature responsible aviators who are able to make that call and stand by it either way...

Are there times when you make the call, absolutely. When your doing it on a routine basis something needs to change. Thats my issue. I spent Nov 08-March 09 doing absolutely nothing useful at this post. Ive been sitting on my ass since Oct and will probably remain their till March again waiting on the advanced aircraft. Why are we not taking advantage of that time to get some of the academic course load down so you can actually expect students to learn and retain the knowledge instead of just learn enough to survive the course. And before you say anything, yes this idea went on every course critique I filled out through the course of flightschool. Most of the time to the dirty looks of whatever LSI flight commander I handed it into going "you realize nobody gives a rats ass what you put here."

 

[Beans]

Sorry to hear that that's the situation at Rucker, Lawman. I just hope the problem can be solved w/o caskets or bent aircraft.

 

[Gatordev]

@Lawman:

I agree, it's a dumb rule, but...

In that case if we arent aircrew members than technically you're operating all our aircraft single pilot, and that gets into its own relm of rules (Single Pilot IFR anyone?).

Aren't you doing this already? On the Navy side, all the TRACOM aircraft are considered single-piloted aircraft for exactly that reason, the "other guy" doesn't fully comprehend what he's doing.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Aren't you doing this already? On the Navy side, all the TRACOM aircraft are considered single-piloted aircraft for exactly that reason, the "other guy" doesn't fully comprehend what he's doing.

My understanding is that T-44's can operate as dual piloted aircraft. T-45's are still "single piloted" even with two winged aviators on board. The way it was explained to me was that the tandem seating arrangement and tight cockpit makes it more difficult to back each other up.

 

[FlyBoyd]

On the Navy side, all the TRACOM aircraft are considered single-piloted aircraft for exactly that reason, the "other guy" doesn't fully comprehend what he's doing.

My understanding is that T-44's can operate as dual piloted aircraft.

We are single piloted until the SMA passes the midstage instrument check (I4390). After that we use dual pilot rules/mins.

 

[Gatordev]

We are single piloted until the SMA passes the midstage instrument check (I4390). After that we use dual pilot rules/mins.

I was wondering if you guys may have been a little different since your platform is a tad more "stable." For Wing 5 (at least as of a year ago-ish), both aircraft were single-piloted, even if two IPs were flying it. At least it made the rules easier to remember.

 

[picklesuit]

Green to Blue baby, we'll treat ya real good here...plus the food is better!
http://www.army.mil/USAPA/epubs/pdf/r614_120.pdf

Pickle, during the BWS phase I spent on average 2-3 hours planning the next days route and flight, believe me theres more to your duty day than whats on the printed schedule. The Brigade Crew Rest policy deams rest as X, you dont get to count time doing Y just because its not on the official schedule.




They attempted to throw a person out of flightschool for taking emergency leave because his wife had an issue with her high risk pregnancy. I dont think anybody outside of Ft Rucker can truly understand the current trend we are operating under. If you raise your hand to scratch your ass they will attempt to take it off. Why? Because they are absolutely commited to getting rid of "the bubble." You really want to be the first guy that goes before the Col as WO1/2Lt nobody to say you dont think you meet crew rest requirements when they already put it in a policy letter that it doesnt matter since your only a student.



Are there times when you make the call, absolutely. When your doing it on a routine basis something needs to change. Thats my issue. I spent Nov 08-March 09 doing absolutely nothing useful at this post. Ive been sitting on my ass since Oct and will probably remain their till March again waiting on the advanced aircraft. Why are we not taking advantage of that time to get some of the academic course load down so you can actually expect students to learn and retain the knowledge instead of just learn enough to survive the course. And before you say anything, yes this idea went on every course critique I filled out through the course of flightschool. Most of the time to the dirty looks of whatever LSI flight commander I handed it into going "you realize nobody gives a rats ass what you put here."

 

[jarhead]

I was wondering if you guys may have been a little different since your platform is a tad more "stable." For Wing 5 (at least as of a year ago-ish), both aircraft were single-piloted, even if two IPs were flying it. At least it made the rules easier to remember.

I'm probably out to lunch, but IIRC all tandem cockpit aircraft (t-6/34/45/f18D w/ ctls in back) are considered single piloted....not sure why side by side seating would be considered single piloted if you have dual controls/instruments & both pilots were NATOPS qualed....maybe just SOP?

SF

 

[Gatordev]

I'm probably out to lunch, but IIRC all tandem cockpit aircraft (t-6/34/45/f18D w/ ctls in back) are considered single piloted....not sure why side by side seating would be considered single piloted if you have dual controls/instruments & both pilots were NATOPS qualed....maybe just SOP?

SF

Exactly. I'll let Jim123 or another HT guy clarify, but I thought I remembered it being in either the Wing SOP or the FWOP/RWOP.

 

[Beans]

edit: nevermind, I thought the confusion was about something else... I should go to bed.

 

[Kycntryboy]

I'm probably out to lunch, but IIRC all tandem cockpit aircraft (t-6/34/45/f18D w/ ctls in back) are considered single piloted....not sure why side by side seating would be considered single piloted if you have dual controls/instruments & both pilots were NATOPS qualed....maybe just SOP?

SF

What was explained to me, in order to get the dual pilot, side by side a/c and both "pilots" being instrument current. At least for the Prowler anyways...

 

[FlyBoyd]

I was wondering if you guys may have been a little different since your platform is a tad more "stable." For Wing 5 (at least as of a year ago-ish), both aircraft were single-piloted, even if two IPs were flying it. At least it made the rules easier to remember.

I can't speak for the 57 but when I flew the 34 I understood the single pilot thing was due to a single instrument source i.e. both pilots are looking at the same data. What about the 57/18/45? The 44 has two sources (one for each side) so there is a level of redundancy the 34 doesn't have. So not really the level of copilot mattered as much as the data being presented to that 2nd pilot.