Are stories of the SWO community valid?

[Pags]

Yea, that was tongue in cheek, Pags.

I know, but I had been thinking the same point earlier and it had got me ruminating on it. The post wasn't directed at you, just an addition to the discussion.

 

[scoolbubba]

Yea, it seems like there isn't really much you can do as a very junior, very beleaguered SWOtivator. Keep your head down, do your job to your best, and take the shit leadership/officership with a grain of salt and a vow never to be like that. Same thing I did with the screamer primary instructors, except I knew there would be an escape within 1.3 of the first expletive.

 

[SWO Bubba]

I'll see your parochial and myopic views of a community I don't know and raise you, SWO Bubba. I say again: I was a SWO. I voted with my feet, as did every other divvo in my first wardroom (either redes'ed or resigned). I have worn both black shoes and brown, and my worst day in the TRACOM was still better than my best day as a shoe.

The argument over whether your community makes you a better leader is disingenuous and irrelevant. Ensign Fester was a "divvo on day one," after all...so am I therefore a better officer than my fellow aviators who weren't?

There are real and serious morale problems in the Surface Navy, they're by and large being caused by the leadership, which perpetuates the problem unto the next generation, and they're pretty much being rationalized, ignored or given lip service. Whether you realize it or not, your snarky and defensive remarks are a prime exhibit of exactly why the problem's not getting fixed. We don't know what we're talking about, we're just a bunch of lazy aviators, right? What we're saying is - we've seen how SWO's operate, from the inside, working with afloat staffs, embarked CVWs and HSL dets...your community is broke, brother. If you guys won't fix it, it makes no difference to us, as long as the boat's lights stay on and you leave us alone during GQ. But don't say we didn't tell ya.

Uncle Fester,

Please re-read my posts.

1) I never once said SWOs are better leaders than aviators. I never once said aviators are lazy. Those are stupid assertions and I would smack down any fellow SWO who tried to defend such opinions. I said I think SWO Junior Officers' morale is directly influenced by the pressure they immediately find themselves under when they hit their first ship one month after commissioning. I think it is a fair statement to say aviators have a different glide slope given their flight training, FRS, etc. I'm not saying "better" or "worse," just different.

2) You were a SWO and now you are not – you chose to cross over to aviation and I chose to stay SWO. What’s your point here? My point is that aviators shouldn’t make sweeping statements about the SWO community based on a sampling size of less than 1%. Nor should those former SWOs who are now in other communities make sweeping condemnations – your sampling size was only one, maybe two ships and still less than 1%. Additionally, overly negative comments from former SWOs can come across as vindictive tyrades. Importantly, I don’t think SWOs should make sweeping comments about the aviation community either. There are goods and bads to both as well as great leaders and not-so great leaders in both.

3) The SWO community has had supposed leadership issues forever. Haven’t you seen The CAIN Mutiny or Mr. Roberts? How about Mutiny on the Bounty (although not USN)? As is normally the case, the truth does not lie at the extremes of the debate. Making the statement, “you’re community is broken, brother,” is just silly; it’s extremist and emotional rather than factual. Sure, we’ve got issues - some severe and some not. We always have and always will have some issues. That's not trying to gloss over SWO problems, deny them or sugar coat them.

4) Snarky? I’ve been called a lot of things over the years, but I think this is the first time I’ve been called snarky. I never intended to come across that way. The original poster asked a good question to a crowd with obvious bias. For the benefit of those young men and women deciding which path to take, I want to offer a balanced answer. Those about to start down this great path should follow their hearts first and foremost. I chose ships because I knew I’d love leading sailors at sea on those beautiful grey hulls. Others choose aviation because they know they will love flying. We are all on the same team and whatever their choice, it’s all good.

GO NAVY! BEAT ARMY!

 

[SWO Bubba]

No, because that would be a mutiny and that's not what professional officers do.

Maybe this comes down to professional pride. Most aviators already have a lot of pride in their profession when they get to the fleet. They spent four years of college working to get a flight slot, two years of flight school to get wings, 6+mo of the RAG to learn a fleet aircraft at the most basic level. That's a lot of time invested in the profession and it lends itself to wanting to excel at the next level. Sharp nuggets show up asking for their PQS and do sign offs quickly. They want to know as much as they can. They beg for flights. Crummy nuggets show up and after several months have to be told it would be a good idea to have at least one or two signoffs done.

I knw there are plenty of SWOs out there who are the same way as the sharp nuggets. They bust their butt in college and select SWO out of a desire to lead men at sea and to fight ships. Unfortunately, these young professionals are overshadowed by the dearth of folks who show up to a ship because it's the path of least resistance. And when the unmotivated get to the ship, they have to be force fed everything, including what it means to be a SWO. All of this is learned as OJT, which can be painful as your instructors have their responsibilities, the least of which is an unmotivated ensign who thinks it's inhuman that he has to be at the ship by 0630 for O-Call.

When you're dealing with unmotivated subordinates, being the cool aviator will only get you so far. Sometimes you have to be a stickler for working hours. Sometimes you have to make people stand the watch. Sometimes you have to tell people to sit down, shut up and fly like a professional. Leading people who want to be there makes the job a whole lot easier.

Extremely well stated -you just defined the nature of SWO culture better than I've ever seen it done before.

A common theme among good performer SWO JOs is that the reward for good work is more work. I felt this way as a Division Officer. This can be a significant challenge for COs and XOs trying to balance readiness demands with the capability of the team you are dealt. You try to light a fire under the rear-ends of those underperforming, using every leadership technique in the book. You inevitably have to rely on and lean on your top performers and try very hard not to burn them out. It is a tricky balance that exists on every ship. For the JOs pulling the load, it is nearly impossible to not feel resentful toward the no-loads and resentful of the CO/XO for not being able to get the no-loads working. For the CO/XO, it is immensly frustrating. This same phenomenon applies to the Chief's Mess as well. On good ships, things are well balanced with only a few no-loads who are kept in-check. On painful ships, the strain of no-loads overwhelms everyone and this is where the breaking point comes in terms of poor leadership examples. Add a weak CO, XO or CMC into the mix and even a good ship can become unbalanced.

Great perspective!

 

[Uncle Fester]

1)...I said I think SWO Junior Officers' morale is directly influenced by the pressure they immediately find themselves under when they hit their first ship one month after commissioning. I think it is a fair statement to say aviators have a different glide slope given their flight training, FRS, etc. I'm not saying "better" or "worse," just different.

Well, since it's "not better or worse, just different," how is it SWO life causes such poor morale? And again you're proceeding from a false assumption. As I and others have posted here, the responsibilities of a new JO when he reaches a squadron are exactly the same as those of a new SWO divvo. He's given a branch or division to lead, PQS to complete, and lots and lots of flying to do. The fact that he's a JG instead of an ENS...how exactly does that make a difference?

The difference lies in the leadership and how they expect their JO's to spend their time. I believe, though you obviously disagree, that the pressures and stresses inherent in SWOdom are caused by a failure of leadership.

2) You were a SWO and now you are not ? you chose to cross over to aviation and I chose to stay SWO. What?s your point here? My point is that aviators shouldn?t make sweeping statements about the SWO community based on a sampling size of less than 1%. Nor should those former SWOs who are now in other communities make sweeping condemnations ? your sampling size was only one, maybe two ships and still less than 1%. Additionally, overly negative comments from former SWOs can come across as vindictive tyrades. Importantly, I don?t think SWOs should make sweeping comments about the aviation community either. There are goods and bads to both as well as great leaders and not-so great leaders in both.The SWO community has had supposed leadership issues forever...As is normally the case, the truth does not lie at the extremes of the debate...it?s extremist and emotional rather than factual. Sure, we?ve got issues - some severe and some not. We always have and always will have some issues...The original poster asked a good question to a crowd with obvious bias.

Oy. Defensive much? There's no tirade here, though I find it interesting that you characterize criticism as "vindictive". I'm not mad at the SWO world. I did my part, they let me go when I asked to go...we're cool. How SWOs spend their time or eat their young now makes absolutely no difference to me personally. If I feel strongly about my experiences, it's because I care enough about the Navy to get bothered by a dysfunctional branch of my family.

Your response to all of the criticisms has been that we don't know what we're talking about individually. If we were only aviators, then we're criticizing communities we don't belong to. If we were actually SWOs, then we only saw a few ships and our sampling was just bad and we obviously hate SWOs or we wouldn't have transitioned.

Do you notice a trend, though? Nobody's on here saying, "I didn't see that...the cruiser I saw as an HSL guy was a happy one" or "Most of the SWO's I've worked with have been eager to re-up and be DH's" or "On the whole SWO's morale doesn't seem that different from ours". Everybody on here who's spent more time at sea than a summer middie cruise - except you - is saying that their observations match up. If AW isn't enough, how about a significant chunk of a recent issue of Proceedings, which discussed exacty what we're discussing here? I was a dumbass Group 3 major, but I'm pretty sure that's a sample of more than 1%.

You say we're a crowd with 'obvious bias'. What exactly does that mean? We're all conspiring to hate on SWOs? If he'd asked us about being a Submariner or Seabee, do you think we would have got the same response?

You've had a good experience as a SWO and I'm glad for you. But is it at least possible that your experience as a SWO has been atypical? Maybe your sampling isn't representative?

 

[ChunksJR]

 

[Seafort]

Let's see if I have this right, there is a distinct possibility that I could wind up in this situation:

1. Midshipman Seafort was a sh*tbag.
2. Midshipman Seafort recognised he was a sh*tbag.
3. Midshipman Seafort decided to put off his commissioning so he wouldn't be a sh*tbag in the fleet.
4. Mr. Seafort spent two years unf*ckifying himself.
5. Mr. Seafort then spent an additional two years making sure that the change was permanent.
6. Mr. Seafort is now Officer Candidate Applicant Seafort.

(We now move from the actual to the hypothetical):

7. OC Seafort kicks ass, takes names, gets it done at OCS.
8. Ensign Seafort goes out to USS DIVOTOUR.
9. Ensign Seafort is a locked on, SWOTivated maternal copulator and gets his quals done on schedule.
10. The XO and the Old Man give Ensign Seafort more work.
11. Ensign Seafort tries very hard not to become bitter and cynical because of those that did not follow his example in #3 and are still sh*tbags.
12. Ensign Seafort has a 3/4ths chance of getting out, lateral transfer, or becoming an assclown, but only a 1/4th chance of actually keeping SWOTivated and setting a good example.

...I'd be a liar, and a poor one at that, if I didn't find that a morale killer.

 

[Pags]

...I'd be a liar, and a poor one at that, if I didn't find that a morale killer.

What SWO Bubba had said above about the CO/XO rewarding good work with more work is not just a feature of the SWO world. I saw the same thing happen in my fleet squadron. Locked on guys kept getting the tough jobs, while proven skaters kept skating.

I saw and experienced the same frustrations that SWO Bubba alluded to about balancing the work load between burning good guys out trying to motivate the underperformers. And it's not just at the JO level. It happens at all levels.

If you want to lead at sea and fight ships then go for it. Your increased maturity should be a huge help to you. And if you find that you keep getting work, take it as a good sign that the front office trusts you to get the tough jobs done and that you'll probably leave the ship in a good place. You just can't let the motivation of others around you get you down or sell them out to the XO/CO. Just remember that when they check on board they probably just attended their last college class/kegger a few weeks earlier and that they are in for a huge culture shock.

Edit: And if you do get there, take the 5min it takes to learn how to get the winds within the recovery envelope for the helo (the answer is NOT to turn the ship in a circle). I'll thank you for it later.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Everything Pags says is true, but there's not much you can do about how your fellow ensigns are performing. Not your job to supervise them, either, and you really don't want to turn into one of those "I'm tired of picking up your slack, shipwreck!" JO's. Definitely no point in worrying now - when you're not even in OCS yet - about the hypothetical guys in a wardroom you might get assigned to. All you can do is your job, best you can do.

Slackers can make more work for you, yes. If you live in any universe where virtue is always rewarded and evil always punished, please let the rest of know how to get there.

 

[HeyJoe]

Revolt of the Ensigns at Pearl Harbor

Originally Posted by scoolbubba
So you're saying the only way to change SWO culture is a Revolt of the Ensigns?

Revolt of the Ensigns leading to Mutiny?

Dateline - Sunday, Dec 7 1941, Pearl Harbor. ENS Joe Taussig is awakened early that morning for his watchstander assignment as OOD (His normal billet is Asst Gunnery Officer, which wasn't expected to be busy that morning). Even though his most important duty will be prepping for raising of the colors in sequence with other battleships moored at Ford Island, he decided a little payback to a senior officer was appropriate and "legal" once he took the watch as OOD as his orders from the bridge would have to be obeyed despite the rank difference (the Captain was ashore). Taussig had awaited his chance for revenge after suffering under this superior officer for quite some time. His protagonist was the Engineering Officer so he ordered a second boiler be lit off thereby complicating and heating up the Engineering Officer's Sunday morning.

Shortly thereafter, the attack began on Pearl Harbor began and USS Nevada was only capital ship to get underway thanks to Taussig's prank. Upon sounding of GQ, Taussig was relieved by a senior officer and went to his battle station in the Gun Director where he was severely wounded in the leg. He repeatedly refused to be evacuated and continued to direct fire during the attack. He later lost his leg and received the Navy Cross for his actions.

USS Nevada became subject to special attention of the Japanese attackers once she got underway taking 14 bomb hits while atttempting to make for the open sea. Rather than risk blocking the channel, she was beached once damage became too severe.

Note: One of the members of Engineering (not the target of Taussig's prank)was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for keeping the powerplants going despite battle damage and unbearable heat that rendered him unconscious several times).

 

[SWO Bubba]

Let's see if I have this right, there is a distinct possibility that I could wind up in this situation:

1. Midshipman Seafort was a sh*tbag.
2. Midshipman Seafort recognised he was a sh*tbag.
3. Midshipman Seafort decided to put off his commissioning so he wouldn't be a sh*tbag in the fleet.
4. Mr. Seafort spent two years unf*ckifying himself.
5. Mr. Seafort then spent an additional two years making sure that the change was permanent.
6. Mr. Seafort is now Officer Candidate Applicant Seafort.

(We now move from the actual to the hypothetical):

7. OC Seafort kicks ass, takes names, gets it done at OCS.
8. Ensign Seafort goes out to USS DIVOTOUR.
9. Ensign Seafort is a locked on, SWOTivated maternal copulator and gets his quals done on schedule.
10. The XO and the Old Man give Ensign Seafort more work.
11. Ensign Seafort tries very hard not to become bitter and cynical because of those that did not follow his example in #3 and are still sh*tbags.
12. Ensign Seafort has a 3/4ths chance of getting out, lateral transfer, or becoming an assclown, but only a 1/4th chance of actually keeping SWOTivated and setting a good example.

...I'd be a liar, and a poor one at that, if I didn't find that a morale killer.

Switch the logic a bit:
- You get leaned on by the CO/XO (i.e. more work) because the ship can count on you to get things done.
- Ensign Seafort may be become pissed at the no-loads, but the majority of the no-loads are the ones who get out. Plenty of room for you to continue to excel and carry on towards command.
- A number of stellar SWO JOs do get out. A great many of the good ones stay in. Admittedly, a few of the no-loads make it through also.

 

[SWO Bubba]

Fester - you and I obviously aren't communicating well and my messages are getting lost in translation. You think I'm being defensive and I think your being whiny and narrow-minded. I offering counter-points to the benefit of the midshipmen and officer candidates who are reading this thread and you're reverting back to drama.

Well, since it's "not better or worse, just different," how is it SWO life causes such poor morale? And again you're proceeding from a false assumption. As I and others have posted here, the responsibilities of a new JO when he reaches a squadron are exactly the same as those of a new SWO divvo. He's given a branch or division to lead, PQS to complete, and lots and lots of flying to do. The fact that he's a JG instead of an ENS...how exactly does that make a difference?

SWO Ensigns get to their ships one month after graduating from College and are thrown right into it. As Pags said, this creates huge culture shock. I think this is more culture shock than aviators experience with 2-3 years of flight training before they hit their operational squadron.

I believe, though you obviously disagree, that the pressures and stresses inherent in SWOdom are caused by a failure of leadership.

I absolutely disagree. Even with great leadership, the challanges of taking a ship to sea are still present. Again, Pags comes through with great perspective. You simply throw out "failure of leadership" - a great catch all. Pags describes very real wardroom dynamics. I confirmed the dynamics as Pags described and pointed out how the environment challenges the leadership and where specific failures can occur. That's a good dialogue, there.

I care enough about the Navy to get bothered by a dysfunctional branch of my family.

Seriously? Dysfunctional? As if all the SWOs in the Navy don't care about the Navy, our Officers and Sailors? Again - remarks on the extreme and automatically suspect.

You say we're a crowd with 'obvious bias'. What exactly does that mean? We're all conspiring to hate on SWOs? If he'd asked us about being a Submariner or Seabee, do you think we would have got the same response?

That means this is Air Warriors.com - duh. Of course you're not all conspiring to hate SWOs. It's just not Sailor Bob. I have no idea what you would say about Submariners or Seabeas, but I suspect your the type of guy who would point out something negative.

You've had a good experience as a SWO and I'm glad for you. But is it at least possible that your experience as a SWO has been atypical? Maybe your sampling isn't representative?

Actually, no - my path is not atypical at all. Also my sampling size is probably better than 40%.

I don't expect you to change your stance. I'll just agree to disagree with you. As for this back and forth, I'm done.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I have no idea what you would say about Submariners or Seabeas, but I suspect your the type of guy who would point out something negative. I don't expect you to change your stance. I'll just agree to disagree with you. As for this back and forth, I'm done.

*sigh* Okay, fine. You win. There's no morale problem in the Surface Navy, we all just dreamed it. I'm being whiny and narrow-minded. I have no idea what kind of experience level someone has to have for a contrary opinion to have any credibility with you, but obviously none of us here have it.

I have no experience with them beyond a Middie SSN cruise and working with the Seabees in Africa, but my impressions were all overwhelmingly positive. Likewise positive impressions talking to their JOs. But I guess that's just a biased and parochial view of a community I know nothing about.

 

[Brett327]

*sigh* Okay, fine. You win. There's no morale problem in the Surface Navy, we all just dreamed it. I'm being whiny and narrow-minded. I have no idea what kind of experience level someone has to have for a contrary opinion to have any credibility with you, but obviously none of us here have it.

I have no experience with them beyond a Middie SSN cruise and working with the Seabees in Africa, but my impressions were all overwhelmingly positive. Likewise positive impressions talking to their JOs. But I guess that's just a biased and parochial view of a community I know nothing about.

Alright folks - good exchange of ideas; goods and others. Let's throttle back and move forward.

Brett

 

[bert]

Fester - you and I obviously aren't communicating well and my messages are getting lost in translation. You think I'm being defensive and I think your being whiny and narrow-minded. I offering counter-points to the benefit of the midshipmen and officer candidates who are reading this thread and you're reverting back to drama.

From my point of view (2 year dis-associated, 3 other cruises + work-ups) there has been a concerted effort on the part of senior SWO leadership to improve the treatment/training of JO's. I think some progress has been made already and if they stick with it they will continue to see improvement to the point that the change in culture is self-sustaining.

But having said that, I've got to ask: was it the people skills you learned in the Surface Warfare community that made you think that essentially calling him a pussy* would help you two communicate better?


* just to save some time, re-read the parts in bold before you argue this point.