Status of OC in a ROTC unit/OCS for NROTC Units??

[A4sForever]

True or not, I've always been of the opinion there there needs to be something equivalent to OCS or plebe summer to filter out the unmotivated bums and general non-hackers....

Well, it used to be called 4 years of weekly PT/inspections/company athletic competitions/rifle manual of arms/marching and later -- 2nd Class Cruise -- wherein we went to a 5-week version of USMC boot camp as 1/2 of our summer, complete w/ screaming DI's just back from Vietnam ... and included running the (then) must-pass UDT Coronado O-Course -- no SEAL's just yet.

Plus ... 80% of us smoked.

 

[statesman]

We had the the discussion of "To OCS or not OCS" in my Senior Naval Science class about a week ago.

The skipper (a fairly senior O-6) who has worked for the JCS and who participated in discussions regarding sending Navy Mids to OCS said it mainly comes down to money. There just isn't enough need to send ROTC Mids to OCS to justify the cost.

We have also had this discussion several times on AW. Not regarding money but regarding the benefits of sending Navy Mids to OCS (if even a truncated one). While there were dissenting opinions of the issue, I got the impression that most of the winged aviators on the boards felt there was not a need for Mids to attend OCS.

I for the record originally thought it would be a good idea, however after the discussion am split on the issue.

 

[RockyMtnNFO]

Officer Candidate Herndon,

I may be wrong about this and if I am out of line, please, someone correct me.

I get the impression that since you are an E-6 and an OC, you think you should be somehow more privileged than those who were not prior enlisted. "Hey, I am on OC! Why isn't anyone listening to me?" The tone of your two recent posts suggest that you're bent out of shape because you had to go through a bunch of stuff that your college buddies don't. You question the system, the one you should have been aware of, as if you deserve an explanation.

I would guess that everybody is in your unit is probably very aware that you are a first class and know more than anybody. I would also venture to guess that you are "that guy". If you need to remind people of your stature, you don't have their respect. I can't think of a time when I heard even a crummy JO remind his branch, crew, division etc. of his rank. If I had, I would've labeled him douchenozzle #1.

I went through OCS and wish I had gone through ROTC. Mids get 4 years of training and tons of OJT fun during the breaks and summers as A4's mentioned. In OCS we got some adversity to bond us and weed out those who didn't want it bad enough. We learned how to salute, swim like a sailor and wear the uniform. Most of what we needed to learn as officers came from paying attention and understanding that if you keep your mouth shut you just may learn something from the chiefs and senior JO's. We probably learned as much in our first month at the squadron about leadership than we did in 3 at OCS. It's an indoctrination program that prepares us to become leaders, not necessarily makes us leaders in 90 days.
ROTC does just fine without OCS.

Having said all that, I am sure that you are a great sailor. The STA sailors I knew were all top notch and I am sure you are the same. Making first class in the time you are eligible for STA is no small accomplishment. I suppose my humble advice, to be left or taken, is to lighten up a bit about the way you think things ought to be.

Steve

 

[Scoob]

Every tour you ever do molds you into something infinitely more experienced than you were when you reported. Regardless of your commissioning source, you will never be more stupid than you are when you put on the ENS bars.

Fortunately, when you're an ENS, everyone knows you're an idiot, and nobody gives a shit.



Quit spitting into the wind.

 

[IKE]

According to CNSTCINST 1533.2, OC's are supposed to be leaders in the NROTC units.
If you have any questions hit me up, I have read every part pertaining to OC's.

Please provide the Chapter/Section/Paragraph where it states this. I've searched an electronic version of CNSTCINST 1533.2 (02JUL07) for "Officer Candidate" and "OC". I found nothing stating this requirement.

419.g states:

The intent of the battalion organization is to promote the military development of NROTC students. Each student must be assigned to a position of responsibility prior to commissioning in order to develop leadership skills. Such assignments should be made to students as early as possible and not reserved for seniors. Special attention should be given to those students whose development indicates a need for both guidance and the opportunity for experience.

​

Everyone gets a leadership position at some point... I got away with only being a squad leader; one of my friends had to be a company commander.

Most prior OCs will probably tell you that the best way to go through STA-21 is with as little involvement in the midshipman chain-of-command as possible.

 

[Pags]

Fortunately, when you're an ENS, everyone knows you're an idiot, and nobody gives a shit.

Ensign is the only rank that you can say and have it come out sounding like a curse word.

 

[HighDimension]

Speaking as a mid (not for much longer), the OC's that went out of their way to separate themselves from the MIDN were typically the ones to avoid. If you really want to be treated differently, show that you have something to offer the mids and they'll respect you for it. Go around telling everyone "I'm from the fleet, I'm not a part of this battalion" and you probably won't get a very warm reception.

 

[Ducky]

There are some things that you need to learn before reporting to a ship or unit.

I understand your frustration, but what alot of OC's fail to realize is bootcamp trained them to be enlisted, and NROTC/USNA/OCS trains officers. The officer job vs the enlisted job is like night and day. New officers will need to know how to CON the ship but not physically steer it and know how to fly the planes but not how to turn the wrenches. The MIDN summer cruises do alot to deter the unmotivated and give new officers the tools they need for the job. I have seen great OCs and bitter and crappy OCs. I have seen just as many motivated NROTC Ensigns do just as well if not better because they understood the officer role and did not carry with them a sense of entitlement because they were priors.

I respect and thank you for your prior service, but please remember that many of your NROTC and USNA peers worked extremely hard for their commissions and will not take kindly to your degrading tone.

 

[Flyboylance]

Just a quick question, is your last name really Herndon?

Yes, why?

 

[statesman]

Yes, why?

I think he was referring to the significance it has for USNA grads.

 

[Flyboylance]

By that logic, YOU should have to go to OCS too...

FYI: OCS =/= Bootcamp.

That's fine, I would have no problem with that. Enlisted leadership and Officer leadership are two totally different things. An officer is responsible for many more things than are the enlisted. I enjoyed being enlisted very much, don't get me wrong, but the leadership is different.

 

[FMRAM]

I have to interject here. I happen to know OC Herndon personally and he is by no means "that guy". OC Herndon is one of those kind of people that everyone wants to be around and as a result has some of the best natural leadership qualities I have seen in the fleet.

One of the things that most OC's experience when they go to the ROTC unit is extreme culture shock. All of the fleet OC's were rock stars in their perspective units. We were used to running a shop/shift, leading junior enlisted, and working with the goat locker. Take a guy with that kind of experience and then throw them into a ROTC unit where they may be nothing more than a squad-body for the first semester. There is bound to be some tension when you have to take orders from a 19 year old freshman middy. I believe OC Herndon is reacting to the how much OC's are kind of homogenized in ROTC. Whereas the MECEPS get to keep their enlisted rank and command respect, the OC's are kind of lumped in limbo between officer and enlisted (which explains why were are treated like midshipmen).

Now that I have given some of the background to this situation, here is MY opinion about this situation. I believe that the midshipmen are my peers. I figured out early on that I wasn't any better than a midshipmen because I was an OC. I see them as my peer group and I have certainly learned as much from them as they have learned from me. Granted, I have almost 8 years of active duty time and I am currently an E-6, but that experience is just that...experience, not rank or some kind of panacea to get me out of doing things in the unit that I don't want to do. We are all getting commissioned as Ensigns, OC and midshipmen alike. (although I am going to make a way bigger paycheck starting out)

To get back to the issue of OCS, I don't think that mids should have to go to OCS. I am sure it would help to weed out some of the douchebags, but I don't think it should be required.

Once again, just my .02.

 

[gotta_fly]

In four years I've worked for OCs, worked with OCs and had OCs working for me. Like anywhere else, each individual was different. Some were locked on, some were so-so, and some were clueless. This mirrored the midshipmen and MECEPs as well. The people that worked hard and took their training seriously stood out, regardless of prior experience.

As one of your future colleagues I find your disdain towards my training to be pretty off-putting. If you want to talk about strengths and weaknesses in the training program that's one thing, but attacking ~40% of Navy officers' commissioning source is probably not a great way to open up the discourse.

 

[zab1001]

When you finally check in to your first squadron as an aviator, make sure to find out where the Skipper got his commission. If he was straight-stick NROTC, make sure to let him know how you feel. Good luck.

 

[Flyboylance]

I have to interject here. I happen to know OC Herndon personally and he is by no means "that guy". OC Herndon is one of those kind of people that everyone wants to be around and as a result has some of the best natural leadership qualities I have seen in the fleet.

Thanks.. I have just seen some people come through the program that I would have tried to dodge as enlisted. They are few and far between. All the feedback from the summer cruises that the mids go on, seem nothing short of a ride in an amusement park. They all come back very motivated and excited, but many of them have not had to lead people. All I was saying is that you don't necessarily have to take everything that a NROTC unit says for gold. Question and research.. It will get you far.

V/R
OC Herndon