The Warrants have arrived

[MasterBates]

I find that even at my age, I sometimes have difficulty getting the learning point across to younger.

Goober, that is because they don't know what an abacus is nor do they remember computers before transistors.

 

[Fmr1833]

Yeah, ask an Army Aviation Officer what he really thinks about the decision-making skills of his Warrants and you may be surprised. I did that just that a month or so ago with a couple of Apache pilots (Officers, all) who had some pretty negative things to say. Not to mention the fact that they were basically desk-jockeys while the Warrants flew.

My .02? Poorly devised program. If anything, the push should be for prior-enlisted who transition to the Officer side post-college. It's a better product going into the pipeline. Not sure what the big push is to further destroy Naval Aviation and the Officer/Enlisted roles anyway. O's are O's, E's are E's and never the twain shall meet short of the college track. Blurring the lines is always a bad idea.

/rant

 

[eddie]

When I was little, I knew that Army warrant officers flew helicopters. Somehow this led me to believe that Navy LAMPS type helos that operated individually or in pairs off of small boys were flown by warrant officers as well. I thought of them as an organic extension of the ship's weapon system, not as a det from a squadron of commissioned officers.

 

[Lawman]

Do Army Warrant O's go back and teach at their flight school?

 

[eddie]

Yeah, ask an Army Aviation Officer what he really thinks about the decision-making skills of his Warrants and you may be surprised. I did that just that a month or so ago with a couple of Apache pilots (Officers, all) who had some pretty negative things to say. Not to mention the fact that they were basically desk-jockeys while the Warrants flew.

My .02? Poorly devised program. If anything, the push should be for prior-enlisted who transition to the Officer side post-college. It's a better product going into the pipeline. Not sure what the big push is to further destroy Naval Aviation and the Officer/Enlisted roles anyway. O's are O's, E's are E's and never the twain shall meet short of the college track. Blurring the lines is always a bad idea.

/rant

Not so much a direct response...


Here is what I've always wondered about the Army.

Let's look at an Apache battalion: 3 companies of 3 platoons each= 24 birds. That's 3 Captains, CO/XO, and 9 LTs = 14 flying officers for each Squadron Command among 48 pilots.

LAMPS = around 32 officers for each Squadron Command.

I've read the LAMPS advancement "pyramid" to be a trapezoid with a flagpole on top. Can you imagine what would be like if everyone in a Blackhawk Battalion was a commissioned officer (something like 40 birds!)!

The DH screen reasoning makes sense when you want to implement the "warrant solution." It makes even more sense for the relativley larger Army "squadrons" on a man-power / cost front (80 officers in a single squadron???). Something obviously went wrong with how the Army warrants get "all" the flight time and "none" of the "squadron duties," but I wonder if the two-tiered system is ALWAYS bad in any given inception.

I suppose its about priorities (i.e. better chance at command vs. more flight time???).

And this brings up the real thing I wonder on.

What determines squadron size in ANY of the services?

I'd imagine it is the bastardized intersection of precidence, tradition, assets-responsibility at O-5, "organic" needs of larger commands (LAMPS dets in a DESRON, or Division's Aviation Regiment with attack, scout, and lift component battalions), and the MISSION.

 

[HH-60H]

What determines squadron size in ANY of the services?

Desired capability (mission)

 

[MasterBates]

Actually, LAMPS is around 55 pilots, at least on the east coast plus 3-5 LDO/Warrants.

Nominally 40-45ish JOs, 9-12 LCDRs, 1-2 SuperJO's. and 2 or 3 CDRs depending if the PXO has checked in or not.

 

[alwyn2nd]

Lawman

All the Army flight instructors are Chief Warrant Officer billets. The Regular Line Officers (RLOs) lost that position back in the early 90s. The Navy will come around to this line of thinking but it will take 15-20 years. Who knows maybe the CWO NA/NFO will be allowed in the strike community as well.

The military takes its sweet a** time when it comes to change. The Navy had women pilots back in the 70s but weren't allowed in the strike community until the 90s.

 

[Stearmann4]

Yeah, ask an Army Aviation Officer what he really thinks about the decision-making skills of his Warrants and you may be surprised. I did that just that a month or so ago with a couple of Apache pilots (Officers, all) who had some pretty negative things to say.
/rant

Ask a Warrant what he thinks of the decision making skills of his "experienced" 500hr commander in combat...

My last one came direct to the company from a 3 year stint with the recruiting command.

 

[Fmr1833]

not trying to be a dick...just sharing what has been shared with me. I still don't like the whole warrant deal...I may be wrong, however. I can kind of see it working in the helo cmmunity, but in my neck of the woods...no thanks.

 

[Gatordev]

Lawman

All the Army flight instructors are Chief Warrant Officer billets. The Regular Line Officers (RLOs) lost that position back in the early 90s. The Navy will come around to this line of thinking but it will take 15-20 years. Who knows maybe the CWO NA/NFO will be allowed in the strike community as well.

Where are you getting this info? I'm pretty sure I've seen O-3 IPs at Florala. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm doubtful.

And why should the Navy come around to this thinking? It goes right back to what Stearmann is saying. How credible is an O-5 skipper w/ 1000 hours?

 

[bert]

Since we've been on the subject:

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/6FCF3152-60CC-4686-A892-6A5D3CBCFA4F/0/NAV07181.txt

There is good info on the board below the selects.

 

[Flying Low]

The real reason behind the flying warrant reason is $$$. Our pay and health care accounts in DOD are spiraling out of control. Bottom line - warrants are cheaper to make and maintain.

An 0-1 makes $263 less then a W-2 at the start. O's start making more as they move up but health care should all be the same. And with CWO's getting targeted pay raises they will continue to close the gap. Also W-2's receive more than O-2's for BAH. How are Warrants cheaper to make?

Reasons on going with youth. They are easier to train, in better physical condition with quicker reflexes and can be retained on flying duty for a longer period of time, with consequent reduction of training cost.

What constitutes youth? After 4 years of college the average SNA would be around 23-24. So unless there is going to be a age limit of 25 then a youth argument just doesn't really have a lot of weight. I winged a month before I turned 30. I have known guys younger then me that attrited or just plain sucked. I have also know guys that were my age or older that were great sticks. I wonder what the age is of the youngest Warrant selected for this program. I would guess mid 20's.

Just because you are young does not make you in better physical condition. Quick reflexes are great. But correct quick reflexes are something else. There is a lot more to flying then the monkey skills.

How are training cost reduced with Warrants? Don't they have to attend the same flight school? They receive the same flight pay, same BAS, in most cases more BAH and are constantly getting target pay raises.


Now I will say that I do think this is a good program. I wish it was there when I was enlisted. But I'm just not sure of the real gain that is to be had with this program. I think anybody (well almost anybody) can be taught to fly. I would be willing to be that most applicants for this program in the future will have more then 2 years of college. As that is what it will take to compete.

 

[Goober]

Goober, that is because they don't know what an abacus is nor do they remember computers before transistors.

Keep it up, smartass. The OpsO at your soon-to-be-RAG and I went to high school together. Your ass is going to an E-2 squadron - a non Hawkeye2000 east coast squadron. You're gonna get "special" attention... Let the oppression of the transition O-3s begin.

 

[MasterBates]

Um...just the Helo to E-2 transition guys right?


RIGHT????

Nope, you are included as well..