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Return of Turboprops to CAS role?

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Back during the Second World War, the acquisitions cycle was much faster for a variety of reasons - less complicated platforms, less bureaucracy, more money to spend to speed up the process. Still, the times from prototype to initial acquisition to combat readiness were quite remarkable.......

As much as I envy the WWII generation for being able to put an aircraft in the field in that time frame, I think those days have passed. Too many lawyers and too many Congressmen. But I repeat myself. Look what's happened to the AF tanker deal, for goodness' sake.

For all the success and speed that the US had at fielding excellent aircraft at a rapid rate in WWII it was also accompanied by a lot of spectacular failures. Even aircraft that are now considered successes had troubled histories back then, a notable one is the B-29, especially with it's engine problems. The Navy's Helldiver was another aircraft that had a checkered history as well and was not well liked by many of it's crews. And those are the ones that made it to combat, there are plenty that did not.

When you look back at the 'good old days' it is important to look at the whole history, not just the rosy parts. We had plenty of problems and bureaucracy back then too, how do you think Senator Harry Truman became nationally known?
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Not to mention that aircraft were just a lot simpler back then. Design a mud hut. Okay, now design a skyscraper. Which one took longer? Plus, you can screw up the mud hut and build another. See how many skyscraper they let you build for practice. Same with planes.

There were a lot of dead ends and lemons in World War II as well. The capital and expertise required to build aircraft was much less, so a company could prototype several aircraft in the hopes of getting one contract.

Yes, sometimes delays are BS and bureaucratic nonsense. However, sometimes people pine for some perfect "back in the f-in day" that never really existed.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
....Yes, sometimes delays are BS and bureaucratic nonsense. However, sometimes people pine for some perfect "back in the f-in day" that never really existed.
There's LOTs of 'perfect back in the f-in day'. You only need to look a little. Just two examples of planes I'd like to be sitting in today ... "back in the f-in day" ... that DID exist and were as close to 'perfect' as any of us are gonna' see in this ol' world:



^ F6F Hellcat: Contract signed June 1941 ... 1st flight June 1942 ... last flew "in service" 1960 ... > 12K produced ... pretty damn successful.



^ A-4 Skyhawk: Contract signed June 1952 ... 1st flight June 1954 ... (what IS it about June, anyway ???) ... still flyin' "in service" ... @ 3K built ... pretty damn successful.


I'd take either one anyday, anyway ... in a perfect world. :)
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think the point was that for every Magnificent Steed of Yesteryear, there were a dozen lemons that never made it out of flight test. And even the rides that proved great often were hustled out to the Fleet with lots of problems. Take the Corsair, which was being CQ'ed before anyone noticed you couldn't see the Boat worth a damn over that long cowling, and thus only served ashore with the Marines for the first few years.

These planes also weren't expected to be in service for more than 10 years or so before being succeeded by a new type. And there were dozens of aircraft firms, maybe ten or so major manufacturers, before the age of conglomeration and mega-corporations. So the mfgr's didn't sweat missing a contract - there'll always be others. And the gov't didn't sweat getting a substandard plane - oh well, try again. Look at the rapid succession of fighters in the early years of jets-on-Boats: F4D, F7U, F3D, etc., most of which weren't worth a damn even as they were headed out to the Fleet. The F6U took so long to develop that it was already obsolete by the time it first flew.

The Mighty Tink and other great planes stand out not only because they were great, but because so many others sucked.

Still, back on topic, there is definitely a lack of wartime exigency around here. Gates commented on it when he took over DoD, esp with regard to fielding the MRAP. There's wars going on, vehicles are urgently needed, but the Pentagon is still running things on a peacetime/Cold War procurement model. There's no reason at all it should take longer than a couple of years to get a COIN plane fielded - small numbers needed, uncomplicated and relatively cheap technology, and many suitable, proven airframes already exist. We don't have to make a plane that can also stand up to 5th-gen Chinese fighters or has stealth characteristics.

Just wish we'd get back to a wartime model of "We can do it, and it's needed now, so give us the money and let's fucking get it done," rather than, "Meh, too hard, let's make do."
 

Birdog8585

Milk and Honey
pilot
Contributor
...There's no reason at all it should take longer than a couple of years to get a COIN plane fielded - small numbers needed, uncomplicated and relatively cheap technology, and many suitable, proven airframes already exist. We don't have to make a plane that can also stand up to 5th-gen Chinese fighters or has stealth characteristics.

Just wish we'd get back to a wartime model of "We can do it, and it's needed now, so give us the money and let's fucking get it done," rather than, "Meh, too hard, let's make do."

Dito +1
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Coming from the Service with an aircraft procurement proccess that has managed to literally Piss billions of dollars into a hole, bury said hole, and start a tire fire on its remains I think some people are vastly underestimating the Risk level taken when developing a new aircraft even when its supposedly cheap.

We lined up to spend 40 billion dollars on the Commanche.... We got 3 aircraft. Original fly away cost was just under 8 million an aircraft, it ended up being estimated at around 20. Now thats a great example of bleeding edge technology and contractors biting off way more than they can chew with the idea that "well we can build it the technology we dont have now will develop along the process and be there at the end of the road when we need it."

Now look at the opposite end of the spectrum with the ARH-70. Here is a cheap airframe using mostly off the shelf technology from the private sector. It was intended to replace an aircraft which was never ment to be anything but an interm aircraft anyway and is absolutely vital to the Armys current operations. It was gonna use the Bell 407, which is already in production. Hell the thing has already made foreign contract sales. Again the thing balloned to nearly double its original cost.

Same could be said for just about every other program of the last 20 years save for maybe the Super Hornet, MC-12, and a couple other raritys which really arent so unbelieveably well done. Its more a case that so many other programs are run so piss poor that even if they do succeed they make a program that isnt done all ass backwards look steller by comparison.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I think some people are vastly underestimating the Risk level taken when developing a new aircraft even when its supposedly cheap.

But they aren't developing a new aircraft/airframe, it's an upgrade of a currently existing product. If the argument is that the upgrades make it difficult, then that defeats the purpose of using this type of aircraft to begin with.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
But they aren't developing a new aircraft/airframe, it's an upgrade of a currently existing product. If the argument is that the upgrades make it difficult, then that defeats the purpose of using this type of aircraft to begin with.

Take a look at the Zulu Cobra upgrade program and tell me how easy thats supposed to be again.
 

Coota0

Registered User
None
Coming from the Service with an aircraft procurement proccess that has managed to literally Piss billions of dollars into a hole, bury said hole, and start a tire fire on its remains I think some people are vastly underestimating the Risk level taken when developing a new aircraft even when its supposedly cheap.

We lined up to spend 40 billion dollars on the Commanche.... We got 3 aircraft. Original fly away cost was just under 8 million an aircraft, it ended up being estimated at around 20. Now thats a great example of bleeding edge technology and contractors biting off way more than they can chew with the idea that "well we can build it the technology we dont have now will develop along the process and be there at the end of the road when we need it."

Now look at the opposite end of the spectrum with the ARH-70. Here is a cheap airframe using mostly off the shelf technology from the private sector. It was intended to replace an aircraft which was never ment to be anything but an interm aircraft anyway and is absolutely vital to the Armys current operations. It was gonna use the Bell 407, which is already in production. Hell the thing has already made foreign contract sales. Again the thing balloned to nearly double its original cost.

Same could be said for just about every other program of the last 20 years save for maybe the Super Hornet, MC-12, and a couple other raritys which really arent so unbelieveably well done. Its more a case that so many other programs are run so piss poor that even if they do succeed they make a program that isnt done all ass backwards look steller by comparison.

Part of the problem is that the Army can't decide what it wants the aircraft to do. We keep wanting to add every new and cool thing we can think of, instead of setting out a set a paramiters and sticking with it. That's how the Commanche became an Apache replacement and the Arapaho got overweight and underpowered.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Part of the problem is that the Army can't decide what it wants the aircraft to do. We keep wanting to add every new and cool thing we can think of, instead of setting out a set a paramiters and sticking with it...

That's not an Army problem, that's a DoD problem. Gold-plating, mission/requirements creep and ineffective contractor oversight are usually what lead to programs getting "late and overbudget". Look what happened to the VH-71 program - the whole idea was to be a COTS helo that could be fielded fast and relatively cheaply. Then came the gold-plating - ridiculous items like being able to VTC in-flight - all of which adds weight, which means the "off the shelf" parts of the airframe have to be redesigned, which defeats the purpose. I could very easily see the same thing happening to a COIN program.

SECDEF's bugaboo is getting rid of gold-plating and mission creep. It's just such a welded-down part of the procurement process now, I don't know how much luck he's going to have.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Still, back on topic, there is definitely a lack of wartime exigency around here. Gates commented on it when he took over DoD, esp with regard to fielding the MRAP. There's wars going on, vehicles are urgently needed, but the Pentagon is still running things on a peacetime/Cold War procurement model. There's no reason at all it should take longer than a couple of years to get a COIN plane fielded - small numbers needed, uncomplicated and relatively cheap technology, and many suitable, proven airframes already exist. We don't have to make a plane that can also stand up to 5th-gen Chinese fighters or has stealth characteristics.

Just wish we'd get back to a wartime model of "We can do it, and it's needed now, so give us the money and let's fucking get it done," rather than, "Meh, too hard, let's make do."


This sums up most of what I feel is wrong with the DoD as a whole. Everything still operates on a peacetime schedule, except for our Ops tempo. Promotions, acquisitions, training, all are based around the idea that we are not at war, when the facts say otherwise. Low intensity warfare is still a war.. why do we continue to act like a peacetime defense force looking toward the next war rather than change in a manner to win the one point five wars we're currently in.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Take a look at the Zulu Cobra upgrade program and tell me how easy thats supposed to be again.

The difference I would argue is that the COIN idea isn't quite the change that the Zulu Cobra is. In my opinion, the Z is a brand new aircraft.
 
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