Death of the Hobby Pilot?

[scoober78]

Anyone hired at those numbers would have almost certainly PFTed (Paid for Training) - in other words "bought their job". PFTers are not well respected by the rest of the industry as they contribute to the lowering of the profession.

For an airline speak neophyte, I'm wondering if you could explain this a little more. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a PFT'er...don't almost all of us pay for advanced flight training (ATP, type ratings etc...) Why are these guys so much less capable/respected? Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending these folks, I'm just trying to understand the system a little better. How do I avoid becoming one of these should I transition to the airlines someday?!

 

[A4sForever]

For an airline speak neophyte, I'm wondering if you could explain this a little more....PFT ...

Briefly ... you end up in a "job" that pays little -- flying commuters -- and are strapped in and trapped in the seat by virtue of the huge debt you owe the company that "trained" you and then hired you.

Plus ... these guys/girls are LOW time and experience and as such they are building their experience and flight time IN the cockpit flying revenue flights for the great unwashed traveling public ... who are usually clueless as to the experience or competence level that's present in the two front seats ...

If you come to the party with your OWN logbooks and qualifications --whether military, civilian, or a combination of both -- they are already "paid" for .... and you MIGHT take the commuter job if that's all that is available at the moment, anyway --- but you can leave for a better paying job without the financial burden of "owing" your employer. Make sense ???

 

[HAL Pilot]

For an airline speak neophyte, I'm wondering if you could explain this a little more. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a PFT'er...don't almost all of us pay for advanced flight training (ATP, type ratings etc...) Why are these guys so much less capable/respected?

PFT is not paying for you basic flight training to get your licenses, it's paying for the training that the employer is required by either the FAA or insurance for you to fly for them.

For example, the airline says that they will hire you to fly their Beech 1900 as a First Officer however you have to pay the the airline what it cost them for your ground school, simulator training and checkride. The airline is required to give you this training by the FARs, but they make you pay it. They probably charged you $15,000 for the PFT while paying you a yearly salary of about $17,000. So in essence you worked your first year for $2,000. This is why PFTers are not respected.

As far as being less capable, do you want to put you family on an airline where the pilots have so little flying experience? The only reason the airline was willing to hire with so little experience was because they had no money to lose if the guy didn't make it through training. The pilot is paying for it himself and the airline has no financial risk.

Another example of PFT is a corporate operator hiring a pilot on the condition that the pilot pays for the type rating. Same thing....the risk is all on the pilot for training that is required by the FAA/ICAO (international flying) or insurance company. It also allows corporations to abuse pilots with things like 24/7 on call for 365 day of the year. If the pilot objects, he gets fired and has just blown 20 grand+ for the type. The company has no investment in him so they don't care if he sticks around or not - and they abuse the shit out of him.

5-7 years ago, PFT was huge in the regionals but now it is lessening there. Mostly because there has been a lot of regional hiring and the pool of those willing to PFT is drying up. But on the opposite side, PFT has been increasing in the corporate world as pilots have moved away from airlines looking for better economic security.

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

Anyone know if Southwest still requiring new hires to pay for type rating?

 

[HAL Pilot]

1350 TT/450 multi, I shit you not. I can assure you he actually got the job, I met him at the gate on an overnight he had here recently for some good ole fashion airline overnight drinkin. I don't know who he fornicated, but some genie in a bottle granted a wish. And CAL, not Express.

I still call Bull Shit.

If this is true, he must be the closed homosexual lover of the airline's CEO or something. Those times don't even meet the minimums. While the regionals are having trouble getting enough pilot the majors more applicants then jobs.

Even at Hawaiian - the most incestuous airline out there - the Chief Pilot's kid has to meet the publish minimums before he is hired.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Anyone know if Southwest still requiring new hires to pay for type rating?

Southwest does not require you to pay for the 737 type rating. They require you to have the type rating. Subtle difference. They don't care if another employer paid for it, if you paid for it or how you got it. Plus after they hire you, you go through all the 737 training again. Southwest pays for it, along with your full salary and benefits. So the requirement to have the type is more of a quality control thing.

 

[scoober78]

Thanks Hal and A4's...clears it up a bit. So the big picture is, have your types when you go looking at the airlines and/or don't work for a company which will indenture (as in indentured servitude ) you to get them? Is the flip side of this more commonly the company paying for your training, or you showing up with that training completed on your own dime?

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

Southwest does not require you to pay for the 737 type rating. They require you to have the type rating. Subtle difference. They don't care if another employer paid for it, if you paid for it or how you got it. Plus after they hire you, you go through all the 737 training again. Southwest pays for it, along with your full salary and benefits. So the requirement to have the type is more of a quality control thing.

Got it - that makes sense - Thanks!

 

[Single Seat]

I still call Bull Shit.

If this is true, he must be the closed homosexual lover of the airline's CEO or something. Those times don't even meet the minimums. While the regionals are having trouble getting enough pilot the majors more applicants then jobs.

Even at Hawaiian - the most incestuous airline out there - the Chief Pilot's kid has to meet the publish minimums before he is hired.

I did too until I saw it with my own eyes. The pendulum is starting to swing the other way again.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Thanks Hal and A4's...clears it up a bit. So the big picture is, have your types when you go looking at the airlines and/or don't work for a company which will indenture (as in indentured servitude ) you to get them? Is the flip side of this more commonly the company paying for your training, or you showing up with that training completed on your own dime?

Except for Southwest (an a few non-scheduled or charter outfits), you don't need a type rating to get hired by an airline.

You won't see PFT at any of the majors or nationals. You see it at a few of the regionals but it is becoming less and less there.

Many "good" corporate jobs require you to have a type rating in their aircraft prior to hiring you. Like Southwest, they don't care how you got it. This is a job prerequisite, not PFT. These operators typically provide at least a decent QOL and a decent pay scale. However there are also many good corporate operators that will hire without the appropriate type rating and see the cost of their pilots training as part of the cost of doing business. These are the places that usually have pilots stick around for years as they get treated and paid well.

"Entry level" corporate jobs don't pay that well and have a low QOL. The better "entry level" operators will pay for your type (which is one of the reasons the pay is lower). The bad "entry level" operators will insist you PFT and give you shit pay and shit QOL. I have no problem with the better "entry level" operators - they are taking a financial chance on a low time pilot to make it through training so their paying him less is to be expected. Plus they have a high turn over as the pilots take their new types and experience and shop around for better jobs. I have a major problem with the bad operators. They want it all for nothing. They don't respect their pilots, but IMHO, pilots who take jobs with the bad operators don't respect themselves either.

...So the big picture is, have your types when you go looking at the airlines

Again, except for Southwest, a type rating without time in type is almost worthless. One type might be good for a low time civilian pilot to show that he is trainable in transport category aircraft/jet but any more is a waste. You also can't get type ratings in every aircraft an airline flies before applying. So go looking with a log book showing that you meet the minimum flight time requirements and your license. Even though many airlines say commercial with ATP written, go looking with the ATP completed.

 

[scoober78]

Thanks for all the time and info. The civilian world is still many years off for me but as they say...forewarned is forearmed. Thaks again.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I did too until I saw it with my own eyes. The pendulum is starting to swing the other way again.

Continental Express pilots wear the same uniform as Continental pilots. Many try to impress people by introducing themselves as Continental pilots (or Delta, US Airways, etc depending on the express carrier they work for). Unless you saw him actually flying the plane, don't believe it. He probably jump seated and claimed it was his flight.

Yes, I'm call your friend a liar. The pendulum at the majors has not swing that far. There are still far more qualified pilots than jobs. They are not going to hire that low time. And if it is actually true, then he is one in a million and should be playing every lottery he comes across.

 

[A4sForever]

AND .... "what you need" to get hired depends on what your competition has when the phone rings for your interview and your number comes up .... I've hired for two major airlines as a collateral duty and that was the case both times.

Back in the late '70's ... if you did not have an FE certificate, an ATP/multi engine rating, a type rating in something, and > 2000 PIC .... you would NOT get hired, in general. It was acknowledged that you might bring little/no logbook time in these capacities to the airline, but that wasn't the point. The competition was just too stiff --- 'cause nearly everyone was a former military pilot, and thus possessed of "good" flight time ... so the differences boiled down to certificates in hand (to save the airlines time and money further down the road).

Times change, standards change, and the competition changes. But the basics don't ...

Sooooooo ... when you are "rushing" the airlines ... the real question is: what kind of "tickets" has the competition (for jobs) got in their desperate, sweaty, clutching little hands ????

 

[Zilch]

This may seem like a lame question at this point in the thread, but let's say you aren't a former military pilot. How would anyone go about getting that kind of time and qualifications? Doing it on your own seems very time-consuming and expensive, especially if you didn't win the lottery and had to work at your regular job while logging hours and getting certificates and such. Is that even possible?

 

[A4sForever]

^ Sure it is ...some guys try flight instructing ... some get a commercial/instrument and try flying night freight/"overnight checks" -- which probably doesn't happen too much in these digital days ... and getting the requisite flight time IS expensive and time consuming. You're not going to get for "free" unless you have a rich Daddy ...

But the airlines are generally worth your time and treasure if you get the job. The proof of that statement is the high demand the jobs are in when the airlines are hiring ... and even when they aren't.