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MCMAP Mandatory Training Mega Thread

What level of MCMAP have you completed?


  • Total voters
    111

BarrettRC8

VMFA
pilot
Col Angus said:
I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the internet. But I'll at least try.

You're both 2ndLt's fresh out of TBS in presumably great shape. Congratulations! You have no idea what a fleet squadron is like. Training that causes "a few bruises" on one of your counterparts has a higher probability of seriously breaking one of mine. I've seen it.

You speak of injuries and "the risk of people getting concussions and injuring ACLs" like it's nothing. Sure, if a 2ndLt tears an ACL, it's not going to affect anyone except that 2ndLt. If a single pilot in a squadron has a similar injury it will affect the entire squadron to some extent. In my community, if a major player with all the quals is injured (generally a pilot who is older and further removed from the TBS fairytale world of daily PT, MCMAP, and sand table exercises), everyone in the community will be affected. If that squadron is working up or about to deploy, it's now jumping through it's ass to find or make a qualified replacement when the focus should be elsewhere.

This is a good discussion, but you're both a little outside your lane. TBS is good at showing the ideal side of the Marine Corps, where everyone is a rifle platoon commander and less than a 275 PFT is considered bad. That is your world. It is all you know. The reality is there are many more variables in the aviation community than you're considering when you formulate your arguments.

I hope that I'm not overstepping any boundaries in this discussion, that was not my intention, nor did I mean any disrespect. I also concede that I don't have an informed view of what life in the Wing is like nor did I take into account the added "durability" that youth provides.

I only sought to put forth my view that Marine Officers are Marine Officers, and should generally be held to the same standard. I do, however, realize that is not how it works.

And I am currently in the worst shape in the past several years of my life. They don't call it The Body Softener for nothing! In between the mandatory hikes, the 70, 80, and 100+ hr work weeks, and week-long field exercises, its difficult to find the time and energy to maintain your fitness.
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
Yes, I am a 2ndLt, but I've been around this gun club for a little while. I know how and why things work in the fleet. And on the air wing side no less so please don't pigeon-hole me.

I understand the second and third order effects you're speaking of, and I understand your convictions. However, any unit (aviation, comm, infantry, ANY unit) that has its combat readiness or effectiveness so seriously compromised by the loss of one Marine's presence is either poorly going about business or is systemically flawed. It sounds like a systemic flaw that is breeding a mindset of TRA rather than building a well rounded combat ready unit with a well rounded officer corps.
 

Crowbar

New Member
None
usmarinemike said:
Yes, I am a 2ndLt, but I've been around this gun club for a little while. I know how and why things work in the fleet. And on the air wing side no less so please don't pigeon-hole me.

Stop. You always talk about how you worked in the DASC. Being enlisted working in the DASC does NOT translate to understanding how a flying squadron works. You might know the difference between a MWSG and a MAG but you don't know the intricacies of squadron operations. You just don't. What you do know is how and why things worked in your part of the fleet. Use what you know, but understand that you don't have all the knowledges.
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
Thanks. I was kinda expecting someone would pull the BS flag. I'm fine with that. I just get a little irrational sometimes when assumptions are made about me.

Still though, the general points of my next paragraph still hold merit regardless of my level of experience. It is a valid position that I don't think you can force me off of.
 

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
Zbone8762 said:
Good Evening - Are all aviators REQUIRED to be gray belts now, like all grunts are required to be Green? Does is really mean anything if you don't have your grey belt? Or are they just trying to get us to show up for this stuff?

There have been no MARADMIN's or ALMAR's out that require you to be anything more than a tan belt.

break break

For those of you that might think having a Gray or higher belt will get you promoted to Major, stop kidding yourself.

For those of you idealists in TBS that have these grand plans of squadron or shop PT or MCMAP every morning or evening because you want your Marines to be as "hard" as the grunts, try it when you get to your first fleet sqd and let me know how well that works out for you ...

MCMAP, like flying, is a perishable skill ... if you don't practice it often, you’re gonna suck at it. You kungfu warriors do it up all you want though, when you break something and get DQ’d from flying, again, let me know how that goes for you …

I will throw this out ... me and "Col Angus" differ in opinions on pilots getting hurt because of MCMAP ... he sees a dude with quals out of the fight and hurting the sqd ... I see it as the dude was a dumbass and I'll be happy to take his flighttime ...

S/F
 

Col Angus

Well-Known Member
pilot
usmarinemike said:
Yes, I am a 2ndLt, but I've been around this gun club for a little while. I know how and why things work in the fleet. And on the air wing side no less so please don't pigeon-hole me.

I understand the second and third order effects you're speaking of, and I understand your convictions. However, any unit (aviation, comm, infantry, ANY unit) that has its combat readiness or effectiveness so seriously compromised by the loss of one Marine's presence is either poorly going about business or is systemically flawed. It sounds like a systemic flaw that is breeding a mindset of TRA rather than building a well rounded combat ready unit with a well rounded officer corps.


I read your credentials and figured you'd throw them around soon enough. You probably left the fleet as a Sgt and were promoted in MECEP. Your interaction with officers was probably at the lowest level (I'm assuming just company grade but I could be wrong, I have no idea what you did). But, I doubt you interacted with the volume of senior officers as an enlisted Marine as you will as a pilot. I don't want to pigeon-hole you, but I don't know if you're grasping the big picture.

I'll refer to the V-22 community because it's what I'm most familiar with. Each squadron has approximately 26-30 officers at any given time. Sometimes more, sometimes less. There are 2-5 LtCols, 8-10 Majors, 8-12 Captains and a few 1stLts. Most of the big quals (NSI, LATI, Flight Leadership, etc, Natops/Instrument Instructor) are held by the field grade and a few senior Captains. The pilots with those qualifications are the only people who can train the unqualified pilots in those various categories (only an NSI can give an initial goggle X or requalify a previously designated pilot, only a LAT instructor can teach LAT), or lead a flight of multiple aircraft. It takes a nearly herculean effort to create an NSI. It requires a considerable amount of external support, including an instructor from MAWTS in Yuma. There are only a few NSIs.

Resultantly the pilots with the quals are constantly flying, there's never enough of them, other squadrons always need to borrow them, etc etc. In addition to being so valuable in the aircraft and scarce around the community, these pilots are also running the squadrons. They are the COs, XOs, OPSOs, AMOs and so on. They are generally in their 30s and lower 40s. Without them in the fight, the squadrons "combat readiness or effectiveness" is compromised. That's how a squadron works. I can assure you that my squadron is not poorly going about business. We are not built around any single person, and everyone is in some respects replaceable. But we train and work up with the people we deploy with. Generally we do this for a few months and up to a year. We develop a battle rhythm and learn to work and fly together. It's what makes us successful. That's just the way it is. And if you think the system is flawed, you may seriously want to think about your chosen line of work before you get too far into it.

Our mindset isn't one of total risk avoidance. We simply aim to mitigate the unnecessary risks, like the silly pseudo-martial arts you guys are all hung up on, so we can more effectively train on and employ our aircraft in combat. Bottom line: Superfluous martial arts training is unnecessary for pilots. A baseline course like the tan-belt training at TBS is fine, but anything additional and mandatory is not. We are all Marines. We went through the same training as you did. Then we became pilots. Our mission has evolved. We no longer worry about hammer-fisting a Centralian in the Quantico highlands. Instead, we train to superimpose our unique set of skills over a weapon system and employ that weapon system against the enemy. MCMAP is potentially a hindrance to our effectiveness.
 

Zbone8762

New Member
I agree - MCMAP is tried and true at breaking people off and getting them hurt. I ask the question because I'm at NAS Whiting Field and I get this Marine talking to us about captains/ majors needing to do it to fill some qual they need. So, they walk around asking LT.s to do it because they need slots to fill. Just wondering if I need the check in the box or not even worth the time - otherwise I don't feel remotely bad about keeping a tan.
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
Great posts, gentlemen. Although I do cling to the idea of redundancy in skill sets in every unit, I understand your positions fully. After all, I am still a tan belt after I got mine in early 2002. At the risk of being considered an arrogant, no nothing punk, I was able to stimulate some good posts.

I'll still be getting my grey belt before heading to P-Cola just in case that directive does come out.
 

pourts

former Marine F/A-18 pilot & FAC, current MBA stud
pilot
mmx1 said:
Depends on your interpretation of "combat arms." Col. Shusko (phrog pilot) thought so, and so does MATSG-22, as they are getting their IP's spun up on grey.

Here's the relevant ALMAR:
http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/2007/MARINECORPSMARTIALARTSPROGRAM(MCMAP)UPDATE.aspx

I don't know if there is an official definition of "combat arms" anywhere, but according to the MOS descriptions on the TBS website, 7599 and 7580 are not combat arms.

I think one of the big reasons they are pushing this is because in their mind, MCMAP is only 1/3 beating each other up, and 2/3 mental discipline and character discipline. I think the mental/character parts are just an afterthought, but what do I know?
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
First, in America, we spell the color as "grAy," not "grEy." Are you all on some exchange program from the British Commonwealth?

Second, I am a moderately old guy with a fair number of quals. I sucked it up for a week and knocked out my Gray Belt. It was a fairly demanding week--I had to work it out with the instructor to come in at the beginning of my crew day, as I was flying nights that week, and then remediate what I'd missed at the end.

My view is rather simplistic. As someone said, they aren't doing cage fighting in MCMAP. Done with intelligent instructors, the training is fairly benign. There are probably some psychotics out there, but if your unit has its own instuctors, it can exert the proper influence on them to ensure the training is safe.

To paraphrase Col Nathan R. Jessup,"You mean this is a United States Marine who can't punch a martial arts bag without breaking his hand?" Honestly, we didn't join the SFAF (San Francisco Air Force). Stop being a bunch of pussies and get it done.

If nothing else, a little dose of oohrah from time to time is a good thing. To me, it's part of PME as well.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I don't really have anything against MCMAP per se (although as a pilot, I think my time could be better spent with more MOS related training/classes. The problem I have is that it's just one more of the many requirements that keeps getting added on that, in the grand scheme of things, is not really that important to what I do. Nothing ever gets subtracted. We're already busy enough in the day-to-day fight of running a squadron and there is constant noise (MCMAP, BST, Motorcycyle Safety, Info Assurance Training, the UnderSecretary of Defense questionaire that he won't stop sending me, GWOE 1-4, etc).

All of this stuff ends up getting done, check in the box style, but I'm not sure of what real training benefit it all has. We end up being the jack-of-all trades, but the master of none. We talk a lot about safety, but we could use more of this time to focus on pilot/aircrew training. In the end, from our little piece of the pie, this is what is really important.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Agreed on that. I think that the internet has made it even easier for the powers-that-be to add yet another recurring training requirement to the plate. If a unit actually spent the full amount of time required to fulfill every training requirement, it wouldn't accomplish anything but the mandated training.

Our MEU CO's motto is "Brilliance at the Basics." Taken to its logical end, I couldn't agree more with it.
 
Not enough can be said about adding more "useless" check in the box training that is required getting in the way of actual MOS training that my Marines actually need to take to the fight.

In the middle of my PTP I have spent more time sending my Marines to required safety stand downs, motorcycle safety tests, a command piss test, General XXXXXX's change of command, made sure they took eight different information assurance classes, CFT fam, people need to learn to say no.

/end rant.
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
I'm all about body hardening ... I usually start with my liver, and then depending on the company, move on to other parts...
 

sodajones

Combat Engineer
jarhead said:
I will throw this out ... me and "Col Angus" differ in opinions on pilots getting hurt because of MCMAP ... he sees a dude with quals out of the fight and hurting the sqd ... I see it as the dude was a dumbass and I'll be happy to take his flighttime ...

S/F


In my experience, unfortunately, it seems that the dumbass in MCMAP is similar to the dumbass who drinks and drives. They both end up hurting the opposing party while frequently walking away from the situation unscathed.
 
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