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Europe under extreme duress

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Ukraine is doing wonders with their Su-27 fleet. We are shipping them spares support overland through Poland. Brilliant.

The land bridge carrying Javelins and MANPADS is especially clever. C-17's offloading pallets into SUV'S, then loading 6 or 8 SUVs onto SCANIA luxury car transporters to the border where Ukraine forces meet the trucks and drive the SUVs to dispersal / logistics sites then drive back to meet the car carriers for another run. Brilliant.

We stand with you @Max the Mad Russian.
Just curious, but why are they using SUVs? Why not say Humvees?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
. I see various "experts" in the West saying about how fighters and tanks wouldn't help the Ukrainians, but then why would Zelensky keep asking for them? Does he not know of what he speaks? I am sure he is going by what his military commanders are asking of him, and given how well his military has performed thus far, I'd say those commanders probably have a good understanding of what they're asking for. It isn't as if Zelensky has said they could use fighters and tanks if they could be sent, but that they are plenty capable of making due with anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles and drones. Instead he continues to push hard for aircraft and tanks.

Well apparently Ukrainian forces have already conducted some limited offensives, driving Russian forces back and even surrounding Russian forces near Kyiv. Word is about 10,000 Russian troops may be on the verge of being surrounded.

The issue is much more complex than simply giving the Ukrainians fighter jets and tanks, first issue being is where they would come from? While some NATO countries have Russian-origin equipment there are a lot of questions to be asked about how much they have, how much work do they need to have done to them to make them usable by the Ukrainians, how to get them there and what do we do for our allies that are now without some vital military equipment?

It makes much more sense to continue to ship them much easier to use, transport and readily available weapons like ATGM's and MANPAD's along with the basics like ammo, uniforms and body armor for now.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
I think history will indicate the Russia all along has been a paper riger - whether its the Soviets or the autocracy of post 1991. And its ethic and cultural - about whom Russians are. Our technological might and cooperative culture and cognitive strength in our military would topple the Russian military in a heartbeat. Giving the people of Russia a taste of free enterprise and representative government would be like curing cancer or discovering a vaccine.
 

Notanaviator

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Giving the people of Russia a taste of free enterprise and representative government would be like curing cancer or discovering a vaccine.
I think your other points are correct. I think this one is less so, and probably falls into the category of our attitudes toward Afghanistan, Vietnam, and a few other places we’ve gone and said “don’t worry, all you need is a little American democracy.” Don’t get me wrong, still a huge homer for American democracy, but a little hesitant about spreading that promise these days.
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
but a little hesitant about spreading that promise these days.
No, I think @ChuckMK23 is right. The one and only economical policy Russia is using from Peter the Great till today is merchantilism as such, based on presupposition that trade is the zero sum game: if one gets profit, the other fails. Namely this approach nowadays Russia still exploits trading gas and oil: it has goods, the others have money. It works for any but it doesn't work for all, since Brits discouvered it in 1870s when Germany started to back France in manufacturing the goods which were better than British ones. Russians were blunt enough to believe in old merchantilism all XIX and XX centuries, and when Bolshevics killed all liberal art education in Russia this stone age in brains became concrete. Now we are seeing the end of this era.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
I think history will indicate the Russia all along has been a paper riger - whether its the Soviets or the autocracy of post 1991. And its ethic and cultural - about whom Russians are. Our technological might and cooperative culture and cognitive strength in our military would topple the Russian military in a heartbeat. Giving the people of Russia a taste of free enterprise and representative government would be like curing cancer or discovering a vaccine.
I think it depends when talking about the Soviets. From what I've read, the Soviet military had more rigorous standards than does the current Russian military, and the thing is that with the Soviet Union, it wasn't just Russia, but Russia combined with the other nations that together made up the Soviet Union. Then the Soviet Union itself was a part of the Warsaw Pact, so there was a sizable number of forces.

I would have to disagree on the "giving the people of Russia a taste of free enterprise and representative government" bit. We tried that in the 1990s and it bombed spectacularly. Also, current Russia does have free enterprise, just not to the degree as other Western nations. Giving people who have never had it anywhere a taste of free enterprise and representative government in their own country won't work, what works is if you can give people a taste of free enterprise and representative government with all the institutions it requires to function somewhat properly as it does in the United States/Canada/United Kingdom/Australia/Germany/etc...i.e., you need, in addition to free enterprise and representative government, a whole developed legal and court system, a whole set of laws regarding treatment of workers, the environment, safety of products produced, laws checking corruption of public officials by special interests, intellectual property laws, laws regarding bankruptcy (if you try to start a business and it fails and you go bankrupt, do you just get sent to prison?), a developed financial and banking system, professional business management who know how to run and manage businesses, etc...plus basically the whole educated class of people to operate all of these institutions.

Otherwise, if you just go for a free-for-all, as was done with Russia in the 1990s, you end up with utter chaos and the populace concluding "This sucks!" It took the United States over a century to really develop these institutions ourselves, and to a degree they are still a work in progress. Other countries similarly. Also we had the foundation of English common law and the colonial economies that we built off of.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Yet another Russian general has been killed, Lt. General Yakov Rezantsev.

And a Ukrainian babushka whose village was shelled heavily, upon being occupied by Russian soldiers, went out and thanked the Russian soldiers for liberating them and invited them (eight guys) to have a special pie she made. Said pie was poisoned and she killed all eight.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
I think history will indicate the Russia all along has been a paper riger - whether its the Soviets or the autocracy of post 1991. And its ethic and cultural - about whom Russians are. Our technological might and cooperative culture and cognitive strength in our military would topple the Russian military in a heartbeat. Giving the people of Russia a taste of free enterprise and representative government would be like curing cancer or discovering a vaccine.
I will disagree. From the end of WW2 until the widespread development and use of precision weapons, NATO would have had a very difficult time stopping multiple Soviet tank armies deployed on a scale that dwarfs what is being used in Ukraine. 52,000 tanks….


Our technology advantage is in design - but vulnerable due semiconductors being manufactured overseas (particularly TMSC in Taiwan) as well as the refining of rare earth metals in China.

Would the Russians want free enterprise? Or would they associate that with the free for all of the imposition of shock capitalism that left many destitute in the 90’s?

Meanwhile, from Ian Bremmer:

The number of countries who have actually sanctioned Russia:

1648342642118.jpeg
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I will disagree. From the end of WW2 until the widespread development and use of precision weapons, NATO would have had a very difficult time stopping multiple Soviet tank armies deployed on a scale that dwarfs what is being used in Ukraine. 52,000 tanks….


Our technology advantage is in design - but vulnerable due semiconductors being manufactured overseas (particularly TMSC in Taiwan) as well as the refining of rare earth metals in China.

Would the Russians want free enterprise? Or would they associate that with the free for all of the imposition of shock capitalism that left many destitute in the 90’s?

Meanwhile, from Ian Bremmer:

The number of countries who have actually sanctioned Russia:

View attachment 34730
Take that map and change the title to “nations with functioning economies” and (with the exception of India and China) it would be just as accurate.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Take that map and change the title to “nations with functioning economies” and (with the exception of India and China) it would be just as accurate.
True enough, but still, that is a lot of raw materials, a lot of manufacturing and a majority of the world’s population.
 
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