• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Why are you Leaving?

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
That's true. Maybe someone could explain to me why we need a 1310/20 to "handle" the flight deck or press the launch button on the cat?
I feel like since there are so many aviators, we are forced to fill these positions that could be filled by anybody...limiting our tactical proficiency in lieu of a "big picture" education.
Could be that aviators are used to working at a higher tempo than SWO's (240 KIAS vs 14 KTS) and accepting personal responsibility for immediate decisions vs. "call the Captain" for every thing.
I would trust an Aviator over a SWO every time when it comes to anything involving aircraft...especially the launching and catching at a high cyclic rate...
Just my 2 cents...
Pickle
 

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot
How about ABH Warrants/LDOs to fill the Shooter jobs?
Isn't there something to the fact that an Aviator might have more of a personal committment to the job (and getting it right every time) because it's one of his/her own out there on the stroke? I know I felt that way as an LHD MINI. Those long hours in the heat/rain/cold tend to wear people down, and human factors set in. Aviators have been trained from day one to understand how swiss cheese holes develop and are usually willing to stop the show when things aren't going right. Look at the opposite end of the spectrum...DDG OODs and Skippers washing a -60 overboard because they were in a rush.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Considering EVERY other person on the flight deck is just as responsible for the cycle as the Shooter, I couldn't see a problem with it. It's a position that could be taught...I'm interested to hear from former Shooters just how much their aviation background made it possible to do the job.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Tell me why Nuke O's don't have to do a disassociated tour? How about SWOs? SEALS? EOD? Could you imagine a SEAL LT checking onto LHD-X in order to further his "professional development"?

I think aviation has been getting boned with the "path" to commanding ships...the party line being command at sea is the end of the rainbow. I don't see (and I could be wrong) how anything to do with a ship makes an O-5 a better squadron CO. Let's dismiss the idea of "professional operator" as someone who is an anomaly and make that the norm. If a guy wants to command a flat top one day, let him make that career choice for himself. I'd rather work for a CO that spent his whole career in a cockpit and has 5,000 hours than one who spent three tours moving jets around on a flight deck and editing power points at the five-sided circus tent.

-Aviators get "boned" with the path to commanding ships because there's a requirement for Aviation Ship COs (CV/LHA/D) to be aviators. I think most would agree that having aviators running the airport is certainly better than having SWOs run the airport. SEALs may not get involved in ship-dom, but I can assure you that they have their share of staff tours to...wait for it...develop them as an officer. Even with the cool guns and gnarly beards SEAL officers don't pull triggers and kick doors their entire careers. Those platoon leaders will eventually have to become Team COs and I'm sure their professional development path would seem startingly similar.
-You may not be able to see it now (I couldn't either as a young JO), but there's a A LOT of value from a disassociated/non-flying job whether it be on a ship or a staff. A squadron CO needs to be able to fly a powerpoint deck as well as his aircraft so he can work outside of the lifelines of his/her squadron. These jobs also expose you to other facets of the system and how to interact with them. If all you ever do is fly then you never learn how to interact with a staff and how to work other portions of the navy system such as legal, manning, funding, etc. There's a lot of value added in a disassocaited tour that gets you to see the world beyond the squadron and how a squadron fits in to that world. Also, there's a lot of mid sized organization leadership/management OJT on an disassocaited tour. If I had gone to be a DH I would not have felt nervous at the thought of leading/managing an HSC detachment or maintenance department because of my boat experience. I also think that my boat experience would have prepared me for success as a SAR Det OIC. That would have been a walk in the park as I was already well acquainted with the needs of the MEU.
That's true. Maybe someone could explain to me why we need a 1310/20 to "handle" the flight deck or press the launch button on the cat? I don't really know enough about all the TAO/ANAV etc. jobs, but why are aviators forced to fill those positions as well? At the very most, I understand a CAG staff position, but those guys generally get to keep flying.

I feel like since there are so many aviators, we are forced to fill these positions that could be filled by anybody...limiting our tactical proficiency in lieu of a "big picture" education.
-TAO/NAV jobs could easily be handled by SWOs like they are on LHA/Ds, but since CVNs are owned by CNAF, CNAF gets to fill those billets. Guess what kind of bodies CNAF has ready and easy access to?
-As PhrogLoop has said, you want 1310/20 guys in the Air dept billets (TAO and ANAV less so) because they "get it." They know how it feels to be in the cockpit and understand the needs of the customer. AB LDOs contribute a lot and are important pieces of the Air Department but they just don't understand the needs of the squadron like an aviator does.
-Another piece that my seem hard to believe, but you learn a lot about flight leadership in a job like Mini.
-bottom line is that Naval Aviators always have and always will have competing responsibilities between the two hats of Aviator and Naval Officer. Anyone can do one. It takes a lot of work/dedication/talent to be able to do both well.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Considering EVERY other person on the flight deck is just as responsible for the cycle as the Shooter.
BS - if this was true, then EVERY other person could/would be held accountable for screwing up the CSV setting and potentially sending an A/C into the water. Winged aviators fill certain positions on the CVN for a reason. And . . . apparently we've been doing it pretty successfully for awhile now.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Considering EVERY other person on the flight deck is just as responsible for the cycle as the Shooter, I couldn't see a problem with it. It's a position that could be taught...I'm interested to hear from former Shooters just how much their aviation background made it possible to do the job.
ABs on the flightdeck are responsible for the tasks that are delegated to them...the Aviators are accountable.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
ABs on the flightdeck are responsible for the tasks that are delegated to them...the Aviators are accountable.
Minor point of reference here. Responsibility doesn't exist if there is no accountability. As such, if the AB's are responsible for the tasks that are delegated to them, they are inherently also accountable for their actions. That said, overall responsibility cannot be delegated and I think this is what you are driving at.

Authority --> Responsibility --> Accountability
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Maybe. It seems to me that all the hats aviators are wearing are causing a lot of really talented guys to decide they don't want to do this job anymore. Aside from the aforementioned Air Dept billets...maybe we should start sharing some hats. Especially considering our hats are pretty damn expensive to create and maintain.

I don't see a lot of the others communities wearing so many hats...but I've been known to be short-sighted and dense.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Isn't there something to the fact that an Aviator might have more of a personal committment to the job (and getting it right every time) because it's one of his/her own out there on the stroke?
Huh? That a pretty ridiculous statement to make. Are you really suggesting that an aviator has a higher level of personal committment to doing the job and doing it right the first time than officers of other communities?
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Huh? That a pretty ridiculous statement to make. Are you really suggesting that an aviator has a higher level of personal committment to doing the job and doing it right the first time than officers of other communities?
I think he meant with regards to the act of shooting an airplane.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Maybe. It seems to me that all the hats aviators are wearing are causing a lot of really talented guys to decide they don't want to do this job anymore. Aside from the aforementioned Air Dept billets...maybe we should start sharing some hats. Especially considering our hats are pretty damn expensive to create and maintain.

I don't see a lot of the others communities wearing so many hats...but I've been known to be short-sighted and dense.
What would you like to share and how would it help morale and retention?
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Minor point of reference here. Responsibility doesn't exist if there is no accountability. As such, if the AB's are responsible for the tasks that are delegated to them, they are inherently also accountable for their actions. That said, overall responsibility cannot be delegated and I think this is what you are driving at.

Authority --> Responsibility --> Accountability
It's been a long time since Leadership 101 and I was pretty sure I was going to eff it up, but I think you got what I was trying to say.
 
Top