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Why are O4s considered JOs?
- Thread starter FLGUY
- Start date
Not surprising for a service that treats CSM's like O-6's or above.
Some of you took the bait. It sounds like the same whining that I have heard before.
If you saw promotion rates for aviation CW2 to CW3 in the AD you wouldn't be so glib. What used to be automatic (80%) now has similar numbers to the hatchet days of O-4 promotion boards in the Navy. Promotion from CW2 to CW3 on AD has been about 60% in the last couple of years. The OH-58 community vanished, leaving about 80% of those guys without any sort of flying job or flying transition. I just met one who is now driving boats/ships in the Army.
With the change, aviation warrants are expected to do the same jobs as their O counterparts, including sometimes being a commander. For non-aviation warrants this is nothing new. Warrants even command ships (or 273' "boats" if you will).
This change is a hard pill to swallow for the Os, but an even harder pill for the warrants. With the added recognition comes responsibilities and career risks they never signed up for. The Army gets a good deal. They pay someone like a warrant but make them do the job of an URL officer. Then they pacify them by giving them something shiny like a new hat.
Before you complain too loudly, ask yourself if you would rather be paid as an O-3/O-4 or as a warrant?
But back to the original question from the OP. I DO believe Navy O-4s should be field grade officers too.
Edit: Also, the "department heads" in an aviation company or battalion are all warrants. There are only 3, sometimes 4 CW4 spots in the whole battalion. All of the rest of those "department heads" are expected to be CW2s or CW3s.
If you saw promotion rates for aviation CW2 to CW3 in the AD you wouldn't be so glib. What used to be automatic (80%) now has similar numbers to the hatchet days of O-4 promotion boards in the Navy. Promotion from CW2 to CW3 on AD has been about 60% in the last couple of years. The OH-58 community vanished, leaving about 80% of those guys without any sort of flying job or flying transition. I just met one who is now driving boats/ships in the Army.
With the change, aviation warrants are expected to do the same jobs as their O counterparts, including sometimes being a commander. For non-aviation warrants this is nothing new. Warrants even command ships (or 273' "boats" if you will).
This change is a hard pill to swallow for the Os, but an even harder pill for the warrants. With the added recognition comes responsibilities and career risks they never signed up for. The Army gets a good deal. They pay someone like a warrant but make them do the job of an URL officer. Then they pacify them by giving them something shiny like a new hat.
Before you complain too loudly, ask yourself if you would rather be paid as an O-3/O-4 or as a warrant?
But back to the original question from the OP. I DO believe Navy O-4s should be field grade officers too.
Edit: Also, the "department heads" in an aviation company or battalion are all warrants. There are only 3, sometimes 4 CW4 spots in the whole battalion. All of the rest of those "department heads" are expected to be CW2s or CW3s.
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I dunno... now I'm starting to wonder if the question should be not "Why are O-4s considered JOs?" but "Why aren't they?"
So if I understand correctly, field grade warrants aren't just field grade within the warrant community, they are treated equal to their O4-O6 counterparts?
Yes. Sort of. You get the same considerations as a field grade officer for housing, etc.. BUT, you are still at the bottom of the list. If you get the last wet CHU as a CW3 and an O-4 shows up, OUT YOU GO! Also, O-3s in command usually get the same consideration. So the example that Hotdogs threw out there rarely happens. Ironically the most bitching comes from the guys who either just put on O-3 or the O-3s who are well on their way to being a terminal O-3. Some of the more cocky 1LTs like to bitch too. Meh.
Interesting. So an O3 would outrank them..but not be field grade themselves. I could see that being a point of contention.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
So if I understand your argument, you are saying that rank structure should be based on promotion rates?
That sounds like a fault on the warrant officer community for not sticking up for them themselves. However, by the nature of your accessions process and career progression, you're probably arguing from a position of weakness. Navy and Marine Aviators have options w/ degrees, age, and training outside of the service to market themselves while not all warrants do. I.e. It is probably easier for us to walk away at the 8-10 year mark than a 15-18 year CWO3 w/ years of prior enlisted service. Enjoy your new mariachi band uniform and stupid fucking hat hinge!
Actually I think they did a good job and a step in the right direction. Sure it's not perfect, but what is? True, Navy and Marine aviators have degrees, but for the Army, commissioned officers are rarely in a position to find a flying job when their done. As a warrant, if you track safety, maintenance or IP there are all kinds of job opportunities flying rotary wing when you get out. The more likely weakness in negotiating is that a warrant has 15-18 years. Who wants to give up on a decent retirement that is 2-5 years away?
Can't tell if you are joking or have a serious anger issue there.
OK, I get it if a subset of warrants get housing equivalent to a subset of seniorish Os or senior enlisted. There's some overlap; I mean, E-9s aren't expected to live in a squad bay. The MCPON, SMA, CMSAF, and SMMC make more money than any officer under an O-5 over 16. We don't need to adjust definitions to do this. "Field Grade Warrant Officer" makes about as much sense as "Private Third Class," "Master Chief Airman," or "Lance Sergeant Major."
I once worked with an Army CW2 (EW type) who swore on a stack of Bibles he'd never make CW5 or anything post-20 years. I should email him this just to bust his balls in retaliation for him giving me a hard time about Army Warrants doing the same job as Navy O-5 SWO COs.
I once worked with an Army CW2 (EW type) who swore on a stack of Bibles he'd never make CW5 or anything post-20 years. I should email him this just to bust his balls in retaliation for him giving me a hard time about Army Warrants doing the same job as Navy O-5 SWO COs.
