Almost certainly not from a DoD or IC one, they don't use that kind of language unless they are quoting someone.
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War in Israel
- Thread starter Mirage
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Almost certainly not from a DoD or IC one, they don't use that kind of language unless they are quoting someone.
No? What about this IC assessment that just came out? Half of the bombs dropped on Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas on earth, have been unguided. Sounds like the kind of info that would make a POTUS say that.
Additional context: the national security advisor is traveling to speak to Netanyahu to discuss "efforts to be more surgical and more precise and to reduce harm to civilians".
I know what you're thinking, Brett. How dare he discuss that.. he's never even dropped bombs himself!
There is a performative aspect to all of this. Showing the world that we are trying to get Israel to be more precise and take more consideration for civilians has political value. It doesn't necessarily mean what Israel is doing is wrong on its face.
I'm fairly certain that the above statement meets the definition of "straw man fallacy".
You claimed the following:
Which at the very least heavily implies if not explicitly claiming that the President took the term 'indiscriminate bombing' from a briefing he received. That sort of verbiage is not used in official briefings unless it quoting someone or repeating a claim. They would likely use language somewhat more similar to that referenced in the article:
Or more in line with what was said about the National Security Advisor's trip to Israel:
Words matter, and while it seems I may be splitting hairs you at the very least implied that the US government was assessing or labeling the Israeli strikes in Gaza as 'indiscriminate bombing', which it has not and likely has not assessed or briefed it as such to the President. And from what I have seen, is incorrect.
The head of the US govt labelled the Israeli strikes exactly that. Neither of us know where he got it, and it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest for the trees.
SECDEF, POTUS, and the NSA are all sending the same message as the world leaders voting at the UN.. one those here all seem to want to ignore.
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So what do you make of SECDEFs comments? Think he's just lying and falsely accusing our ally for political points?
It doesn't have to be so black and white, you know. The SECDEF and POTUS comments I've read don't seem to me to be indicating that they think the whole effort is invalid. I think they are playing up the effort to reduce civilian casualties for public opinion points- to help continue public support for Israel, among other things. War is a political tool, after all.
Nobody here is arguing the war is "invalid". I agree that's not what they're saying. They're saying Israel needs to stop doing things like dropping unguided bombs on residential centers (ie, everything in Gaza), and they've employed moral, strategic, and legal justifications for that argument, the same as me. That said, of course Israel has every right to defend themselves and should not shy away from accepting collateral damage when it's necessary and minimized. That's just not what they're doing.
Tell me, what do you make of our IC's assessment regarding unguided bombs? How does dropping those on residential hubs full of non-combatants jive with your sense of a moral military action by a modern military in 2023 by a nation whose existence doesn't hinge on the use of such tactics? Is it such a leap to you that the president and SECDEF, knowing such tactics are being used, actually believe what they're saying and aren't just essentially accusing our ally of what would amount to war crimes (indiscriminate bombing) for political points?
I don't have an opinion on the war one way or another but maybe his actions are politically motivated...even just a little bit.
"President Joe Biden's support among Arab Americans, who are crucial voters in battleground election states, has plunged from a comfortable majority in 2020 to just 17%, a new poll shows, amid growing anger over the Democratic president's support for Israel's attacks on Gaza." Source
Edit: The "comfortable majority" from the article was 59%.
As an aside to the debate, I was talking to a friend (still in the business) about this and he noted that the Israelis have a very robust PSYOP operation and have dropped leaflets and made broadcasts before nearly every major strike or move. Both are “convention” requirements if you plan on bombing or shelling an area that has civilians.
The report is summarized by CNN and not a primary document. Air to ground munitions could also include rockets and even 20mm. We really don’t know what is in the actual report because we don’t have it. Leaked portions of reports to the press are done for certain purposes and those leaks never say if the entire IC concurs with the report. Guided munitions don’t grow on trees either, nor does the report state where those specific munitions were used. A 2000lb unguided bomb dropped on a tunnel entrance in a large field is well within reason.
Lastly, you really need to tame it down. Many here have lived and breathed this world for over two decades. Your previous comments demonstrate a lack of basic understanding in multiple areas. Discounting our experience in similar environments is disrespectful. You should be trying to learn from us and not attack via quoted sound bites.
This is ironic, on multiple levels. Anyone who has supported the fight against ISIS knows it was a campaign of annihilation. It was not a traditional counter insurgency campaign with levels of measured restraint similiar to OEF or OIF. It was probably one of the most successful FID missions ever executed. Again this makes me question the veracity of your statements.
What did you do at CJTF-OIR? as a MH-60S dude? Elaborate on your “fighting time” against ISIS, and what exactly you did. Again, I only ask this because your comments are ill-informed and lack the nuance of a fires professional or aviator who has been placed in these situations.
Oh give me a break. When did I discount anyone's experience? When did I debate specifics of strike ops with anyone? When did anyone even provide a single shred of insight from a strike background? On the contrary, I've asked specific questions of those here, and received no answers, while quoting and relying on the analysis of sources more reliable than anyone here, like SECDEF. Most of my points have literally nothing to do with CDE's anyway, but are moral or strategic arguments. Stop with this false narrative attempt at distracting from the actual debate, or show me exactly when you think I did anything you're accusing me of.
As for the rest, the govt, from the State Dept to the SECDEF, the IC to the President are all sending the same message, which concurs with the assessments of almost every country on earth. The mental gymnastics I'm reading here to deny it at this point is traveling to a conspiracy theory. For your theory to be true, DoD, state, and POTUS would all have to have decided to burn one of our closest and oldest allies, while leaking an IC assessment in an intentionally misleading fashion.
See you in a few months when this conspiracy further unravels.
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