War in Israel

[Average Monke]

I think you're misunderstanding what is meant by proportionality, then. Google "Law of Armed Conflict Proportionality". Basically, each individual attack cannot cause a disproportionate amount of collateral damage to non-military targets. So dropping bombs on a hospital that kill, say 10 Hamas fighters and 50 civilians, is disproportionate and wrong.

I understand this concept, but that doesn't appear to be what Gonzo meant. He compared casualty numbers from the entire conflict rather than during a specific strike.

It seems Israel doesn't care how many civilians they kill as long as they accomplish at least something militarily. That is how war crimes are committed.

Would you not agree it's perhaps a little early to be jumping to this conclusion? IDF has publicly presented evidence that Hamas is using Al Shifa hospital, the Indonesian Hospital in Beit Lahia, and the Qatari Medical Center as military command centers (and in some cases actually fighting from them). Wouldn't expect the IDF to have already leveled these hospitals if they did not care about civilians? I'm curious how you are coming to this conclusion.

 

[Mirage]

I understand this concept, but that doesn't appear to be what Gonzo meant. He compared casualty numbers from the entire conflict rather than during a specific strike.

Would you not agree it's perhaps a little early to be jumping to this conclusion? IDF has publicly presented evidence that Hamas is using Al Shifa hospital, the Indonesian Hospital in Beit Lahia, and the Qatari Medical Center as military command centers (and in some cases actually fighting from them). Wouldn't expect the IDF to have already leveled these hospitals if they did not care about civilians? I'm curious how you are coming to this conclusion.

Gonzo's point, as I took it, refers to overall casualty numbers as evidence that Israel is acting with a pretty callous disregard to civilian casualties. 9000+ Gazans are dead while very very few Israelis have died fighting them (almost all reported casualties happened in the original sneak attack). It's a safe bet that a huge percentage of those 9000 were innocent civilians, especially if you analyze Israeli tactics thus far (bombing hospitals known to be occupied by hundreds of civilians, leveling city blocks in densely crowded residential areas, etc.)

 

[Average Monke]

Gonzo's point, as I took it, refers to overall casualty numbers as evidence that Israel is acting with a pretty callous disregard to civilian casualties. 9000+ Gazans are dead while very very few Israelis have died fighting them (almost all reported casualties happened in the original sneak attack).

Ok, so we agree that Gonzo's use of the term proportionality has nothing to do with the "law of proportionality" you cited? (Gozno, you clarification would be greatly appreciated)

especially if you analyze Israeli tactics thus far (bombing hospitals known to be occupied by hundreds of civilians, leveling city blocks in densely crowded residential areas, etc.)

Genuinely curious, which hospitals has the IAF bombed? I am aware of strikes near hospitals, but none directly on hospitals. Do you have evidence of the latter? We can only gain very limited information from causality numbers without the knowing the broader context of how they occurred. We are not privy to all the information the IDF has nor should we presume to know their intent. If this is hill you are willing to die on, I am not going to stop you, but I think it's far to early to be jumping to conclusions.

 

[Hotdogs]

I don’t believe a single fucking number coming out of Gaza (nor should any rational person). Anyone using it to cite LOAC violations is a moron.

Gonzo's point, as I took it, refers to overall casualty numbers as evidence that Israel is acting with a pretty callous disregard to civilian casualties. 9000+ Gazans are dead while very very few Israelis have died fighting them (almost all reported casualties happened in the original sneak attack). It's a safe bet that a huge percentage of those 9000 were innocent civilians, especially if you analyze Israeli tactics thus far (bombing hospitals known to be occupied by hundreds of civilians, leveling city blocks in densely crowded residential areas, etc.)

It’s interesting that you’re all of the sudden a fan of international law ?.

What is it then? International law doesn’t exist and Israel can go ham on Hamas? or International law does exist and we should make every attempt to legitimize it?

 

[Brett327]

If I'm wrong on anything I said up there geographically then please correct me. Otherwise, your left wing Fox News bashing isn't going to make you right in this. They let you back on this site? Last time I was here you were banned for being a moron. (Although still posting stupid shit under a different name)

Everyone take the temperature down several notches. Let's have the discussion without vitriol.

 

[Mirage]

Ok, so we agree that Gonzo's use of the term proportionality has nothing to do with the "law of proportionality" you cited? (Gozno, you clarification would be greatly appreciated)

If you want info on the LOAC's idea of proportionality, don't rely on me or Gonzo. Go read about it.

Genuinely curious, which hospitals has the IAF bombed? I am aware of strikes near hospitals, but none directly on hospitals. Do you have evidence of the latter?

I never claimed Israel destroyed a hospital. They've repeatedly bombed the entrance to the Al-Shifa hospital and ambulances around it, killing dozens of civilians. According to the WHO, 39 health facilities have been damaged. Additionally, the UN Secretary General said Gaza is becoming a "graveyard for children" as a reported 4,104 children have so far been killed there. This while Israel reports losing just 31 soldiers.

We can only gain very limited information from causality numbers without the knowing the broader context of how they occurred. We are not privy to all the information the IDF has nor should we presume to know their intent.

We know the context of how they occurred. Again, from the UN Secretary: "Ground operations by the Israel Defense Forces and continued bombardment are hitting civilians, hospitals, refugee camps, mosques, churches and U.N. facilities – including shelters. No one is safe." 89 UN workers have been killed.

If this is hill you are willing to die on, I am not going to stop you, but I think it's far to early to be jumping to conclusions.

Yeah I care a lot about my country not supporting the indiscriminate killing of thousands of children. Thanks for not stopping me, that's a relief.

I don’t believe a single fucking number coming out of Gaza (nor should any rational person). Anyone using it to cite LOAC violations is a moron.

I'm sure the numbers are off a bit, but I trust the UN Secretary General isn't a complete moron.

It’s interesting that you’re all of the sudden a fan of international law ?.

What is it then? International law doesn’t exist and Israel can go ham on Hamas? or International law does exist and we should make every attempt to legitimize it?

You are confusing international law with regards to why countries do what they do (which is silly) with international law as it relates to what is moral and what we should be supporting. They are 2 completely separate things.

 

[jollygreen07]

They let you back on this site? Last time I was here you were banned for being a moron. (Although still posting stupid shit under a different name)

I remember that guy… It wasn’t IRfly but he was a hoot.

I’d like to contribute the meme below to the conversation. Any/all of you feel free to heed its sage advice.

 

[JTS11]

Again, from the UN Secretary: "Ground operations by the Israel Defense Forces and continued bombardment are hitting civilians, hospitals, refugee camps, mosques, churches and U.N. facilities – including shelters. No one is safe."

Yeah, no way the IDF should ever target a mosque.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1721595202119364791

 

[Hotdogs]

I'm sure the numbers are off a bit, but I trust the UN Secretary General isn't a complete moron.

I’ve seen the UN put out a number of absurd things, and the Secretary General isn’t exempt from lunacy, either.

You are confusing international law with regards to why countries do what they do (which is silly) with international law as it relates to what is moral and what we should be supporting. They are 2 completely separate things.

Then why do you care about what Israel is doing?

 

[Mirage]

Then why do you care about what Israel is doing?

I think I've explained that repeatedly. I don't like seeing children killed by the thousands, and it's even worse when my tax dollars are supporting it. I'd ask what your point is, but I'm confident it will make no sense.

 

[nittany03]

I'd ask what your point is, but I'm confident it will make no sense.

Future posts in this vein and with this lack of civility will be deleted.

 

[Hotdogs]

I think I've explained that repeatedly. I don't like seeing children killed by the thousands, and it's even worse when my tax dollars are supporting it. I'd ask what your point is, but I'm confident it will make no sense.

No they’re definitely related. You disregard the logic of international law which is rooted in the basic human rights you dislike to see violated (indiscriminate human suffering). Like many populists of the current political climate, it reeks of cognitive dissonance.

I won’t even touch your previous incorrect statement about the concept of proportionality. The beatings will continue.

 

[Average Monke]

If you want info on the LOAC's idea of proportionality, don't rely on me or Gonzo. Go read about it.

Clearly there's a massive disconnect between what I am writing and what you think I am writing. You mentioned the "Law of Armed Conflict Proportionality" and then, by your own admittance, explained that's not actually what Gonzo meant. I asked Gonzo what he meant, not you.

I never claimed Israel destroyed a hospital.

My guy, I used the same exact word you did - bombed. Not sure where you "destroyed" from...

They've repeatedly bombed the entrance to the Al-Shifa hospital and ambulances around it, killing dozens of civilians

Again, not the same as bombing the hospital, but I think you know that. Nowhere in the article you linked does it say or suggest that Israel has "repeatedly bombed the entrance to the Al-Shifa hospital killing dozens". The only thing you claim that the article supports is that Israel bombed an ambulance. The article also says Israel claimed Hamas was using the ambulance. Could be true. Could've been a mistake. Do you actually know the truth? My guess is a resounding no.

4,104 children have so far been killed there

That shit is fucking tragic, period. I mourn the loss of every innocent man, women, or child killed in this fucked up conflict regardless if they Palestinian or Israeli (or any other nationality for that matter). That number, however, doesn't prove that Israel does not care about civilians or is indiscriminately bombing civilians per say. Given the population of Gaza, you could argue that number should be significantly higher considering the intensity of the air campaign.

You can hold Israel accountable for every child killed, fine, but perhaps you should recognize Hamas is equally (if not more) responsible by intentionally obfuscating the battlefield.

This while Israel reports losing just 31 soldiers

Actually, it was 1400 soldiers, women, and children. Do I even need to explain that "31 soldiers" figure is very likely under reporting and doesn't include all causalities or is that stating the obvious? Regardless, comparing numbers achieve very little except suggesting Israel is a lot more effective at protecting their own people than Hamas is. This is coming off a lot more emotional than objective.

I care a lot about my country not supporting the indiscriminate killing of thousands of children

Yeah, you are preaching to the choir (except maybe excluding Ken). If you have ideas how Israel can completely prevent civilian causalities while destroying Hamas please share with the class.

 

[Gonzo08]

(Gozno, you clarification would be greatly appreciated)

I am not fluent in the legalities of the LOAC having only had one seminar on it at the War College during my time there. Nor do I have a deep knowledge of the history of this conflict. My use of the term "proportionality" was more about total number of casualties thus far in the conflict. If I used the term incorrectly or caused confusion then that's on me, sorry.

That being said, even if Israel isn't technically violating LOAC, points have been made since my last post demonstrating that Israel is acting in a way that has or could cause them to eventually lose the moral high ground. Just look at the rhetoric from other nations who initially supported Israel after Oct 7.

My concern is how far the US is willing to go in support of a country that (I believe) is already on shaky ground in this conflict. (Disclaimer: I have a personal interest in the course of this conflict which I won't detail but should be easy enough to figure out if you look at some of my last few posts)

 

[taxi1]

Lots of dead Gaza civilians for sure. Hamas has said it wants martyrs. It is getting them.

Hamas has said in interviews that it needs martyrs to accomplish its goal, that it is not their job to protect the Palestinians (it is the UN’s) and that what they did in October 7th they will keep doing over and over and over. Hamas has zero desire to minimize Palestinians casualties, and in fact wants them. They could use their tunnels to protect them, but they don’t. The fundamental job of a government is to protect their people. Hamas is doing the opposite.

There are no clean hands on either side here, but the sooner Hamas is gone, the fewer Palestinians will be killed.