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Vance AFB Primary

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jwilliamsee

Registered User
Todd thats good to hear because I imagine I am going there whether I like it or not based on my prior time. At least If you go helo's or turbo props(which would be fine)you have a little pic twin jet time on your books. It's pretty close to home for me to ...Kansas City. How long does AF training last? It's the whole ball of wax right primary intermediate ect until you go to advanced/t-45 ect. depending on your pipeline.
 

trmat79

Registered User
Well the pipeline time really varies. I think our class is set to finish phase two (the t-37) by april sometime. And then it is off to wherever for the next phase. If you get E-6 you stay here and train on the T-1, if you get props or helos you stay here for intermediate (which is like 16 flights and most people finish them in 2-4 weeks) and then onto P-cola or Texas.

Todd Matson
 

trmat79

Registered User
hey you will spend about five months in the tweet and then another month here if you get props or helos...

Todd Matson
 

Jason Williams

Registered User
just to set the record straight.
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I Went to Vance and got jets last April, but after seeing how the Navy does things I would never in a million years go back to train with the Air Force. They are extremely picky. (flap as oppossed to flaps) in a boldface would buy you a day in the green chair. oh yeah I love looking at the same GASH ONE (dash one) every day for 12 hours to decribe in the minutist detail how the oil warms up. The pattern is riduculus and walking around the flight room doing a pattern walk makes you less sure of an already unsure pattern. On the positive I met some cool people and had alot of fun on the weekends. You would be amazed at what you can do with 20 people and alot of beer. The Navy just seems to have a big boy mentallity and I like being treated like an adult. PS I had 1400 hours when I went to Vance and I felt like I struggled as much as the guy with none.
 

trmat79

Registered User
I just got done with week one and can relate....it is not easy but who said it was going to be. I think it offers a good oppurtunity for someone with no time to actually start from day one and actually have a shot at flying and completing the program.....my main advice is stay in from of the reading
 

webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
jwilliamsee,

I hear your point loud and clear on the whole debate of does that "1000 hour guy" have a leg up on the rest. Yes, he/she does, at the very least with respect to handling communications, familiarity with taxiing (hold short, active and the dangers of losing SA and avoiding runway incursions), and the basic monkey skills that go along with flying. But where they get caught up short, are the changes, or things they need to unlearn, or change about their flying habits. You don't fly a right base box pattern in the military, you fly a descending pattern from the 180 to the 90 and final. Hey, maybe not much, but add that to faster speeds (coming from that Cessna per se), flying the pattern quicker, and throwing in gear and flap transitions that aren't really the same in a Cessna. And god help me if I flew a wide pattern in the T34 during Primary, with those extended finals you can manage with a box pattern, nope, you need that tight rolling final at 200-300 feet up, and on centerline or getting there. Then youare money! And, you know what? I still stive for that in the P3...

Also, a civilian tower could give a **** less if I report my gear in the pattern, but in the Navy you better do it, or the IP might wave you off, after he failed your gear indications... DOH! Or worse yet, during an EP, you forgot to do the landing checklist!!
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Then you get to the whole subject of emergencies, I seriously doubt (granted there are differing pilot training schools out there that you mentioned, I would expect Embry Riddle would have a squared away system vice the fly by night guy teaching lessons at the local air field) that throw emergency procedures at you the same way. When getting your PPL, did you do IGPs (instrument gas position reports) every 15 min? And go through a 1.5 - 2.0 flight going from high work, to outlying field, to another outlying field, back to the home pattern, and god help you if you got lost or missed a check point, or didn't fly with the correct power settings?

What about the briefs and the board diagrams before each flight, 30 min to an hour of one on one diagramming and systems explanations?

Also, how many guys with their CFI, PPL or Instrument Card have flown Form or Precision Aerobatics? VNAVs? I would say the playing field is quite level then in the syllabus.

Radio Instruments (RIs) are probably going to be money for those that are already familiar with them, but for a new guy like me, that is where I made my most aboves. A couple hours on my computer with the RIOT trainer, and practice practice practice, and I did well in that portion of the syllabus. Heck, by that time, most everyone should, or better be pretty darn comfortable in the plane and with checklists....

In the end, it is a rough load for everyone (yes, yes, guys blast through the program with 79 NSSs, and they might have had that 1500 hours and all the liscenses to go with it), but they still had to study and go through the same hoops, in many cases on an accelerated track! If you have those 1500 hours, good on you, you might just have been smarter than the rest of us in your preparation, but don't be surprised during selection when a guy with none smokes your NSS and gets the jet slot (or, -- cough --, P3 slot in MY case!!) ...
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Oh well, my 2 cents...
 

Heineken

SNA Advanced, Meridian
I'd say that of course the guy with lots of flight time should do better than the rest in training. After all they've got alot of hours right? Don't think so...it all boils down to the individual.

I've got over 800 hrs of instruction given (and yes I know it's only in Cessna's, Mooney's and other light general aviation aircraft) but it all boils down to this:Does the person training have at least the basic monkey skills, does the person have the right positive attitude(willing to learn), and does he/she have the motivation to succede and study hard.

I've had a student come in that has had no hours, has studied hard, and busted his a$$ all the way through his training. Then I've had guys with...500,800, and 1500 hours (to get comm. and inst. tickets) who thought they knew it all...they couldn't fly as good as the Private Pilot.

Why does general civilian aviation take a back seat compared to the Military? In the civilian world anyone with enough money that has no buisness having a license, can get one. I've seen it happen more than a few times. I'm pretty sure you can't just slide by in the Navy.

And emergency procedures...ha,what emergency procedures? J/J It's really all up to the instructor and how well he want's his students to know them. Some instructors just want to build time, and go to the airlines...so the student suffers. I throw the book at 'em and make sure they know everything. It's the only way it should be. If the student doesn't like it, I let 'em know that I'm not the only instructor around. Flight Instructors are the gate keepers to the flying community, no one should pass through without a little sweat and hard work.

So, it doesn't matter how many hours you have...it's do you want it more than the other guy.
 

trmat79

Registered User
I completely agree with John, I have no hours up here at Vance and I have seen guys with 800-1500 hours and guess what we are both in the books until pattern calls, speeds, RPMs and all the other stuff is melted somehow into our brains. I went out last night ( the first time in a while) and met a guy in ground school here that could tell me anything about the flight line and still has 3 weeks until he gets there. Come on people you need to have a release too. His excuse was that his girlfriend broke up with him and then he devoted all the time he spent on her to learning about the T-37. (Maybe she was smothered just a bit) anyway I say work hard and prepare for the next thing. Don'f forget to read about DAY TWO because you think something that is going to happen on week two is cool...guess what now you are behind the curve. Just concentrate on the next thing you have to do and you will be fine....1 billion hours or none
 

jwilliamsee

Registered User
I see your point guys. I wasn't trying to start a big debate or anything just curious how things could be so different learning to fly with the military. I guess I would like to believe that I have a leg up and that all the time and money I spent was not wasted. I have taught guys that just seem to be naturals and high time guys that are clueless. I am probably somewhere in the middle but having to figure stuff out instead of being a natural makes me a pretty good teacher. It is very possible that lower time guys could pass me by in my training but I don’t care. I am one of those Ex-enlisted maintenance guys who still has it in my head that military pilots are gods. I got PRK done which opened a door to me that’s been shut my whole life. I will be happy and feel privileged to fly anything the Navy wants me to. I can’t wait to find out what it’s all about! My OCS date of April 5th was cancelled and I was rescheduled for March 8th lucky me. I’ll let everyone know if the flight time helped or not. I do know that there is at least one other guy in my OCS class like myself who has over a 1000 hours so it should be an interesting experiment.
 

Heineken

SNA Advanced, Meridian
jwilliamsee,

My goal is to get in primary, nail the first couple of flights...with the help of all the great gouge I'm getting and get on the accelerated track. One cool thing about already knowing to fly is not having to go through the whole deal of learning how to land for the first time and such, same thing with IFR skills.

I know what you mean when you say you, "can't wait to find out what it's all about." I'm right there with you. I like the fact that I'll be flight instructing till OCS, but when I get students that don't study, and don't care or don't take it seriously it makes me want to jettison them out the door and take off to OCS now.
 

jwilliamsee

Registered User
hennekecfi,

God I know what you mean about students! I love teaching and it can be rewarding when you finally get through to that tough student or when the DE tells you that you did a great job teaching a guy. I just get sick of the BS. I would call my barber if I was going to be late or if I was not going to show up. I don't understand why people are so ****ty to their CFI. I am doing it part time now and people don't realize that I made a special trip out to the airport for them. Anyway maybe I'll se ya around the pipeline.
 

funkonomics

Registered User
I see that the general consensus seems to be that Navy training is preferable to that @ Vance AFB. However, I find myself thinking that Vance might be a good shot, for no other reason than having at least some hours in a jet.
A couple of questions though:
1) I will be taking my PPL check ride on 3/11/03, and starting OCS on 3/22/03. How do I make sure the Navy knows of my newly-acquired ticket? (Especially since all I will have is the temporary one)
2) How does one go about requesting a Vance assignment (in practical terms)?
 

ghost_ttu

Registered User
has anyone paid much attention the the AF guys over at Whiting? I'm wondering what the statistics of their drops are, how large are their class sizes? (meaning how many AF guys are usually going through a drop at a time) And I'm wondering if anyone knows what those guys are generally getting? Same 30% jets, 69% T-1/T-44, 1% Helo? I'm just curious if anyone has any info?

Eliminate distractions, focus on your goals and visualize what you hope to accomplish.
 
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