Unsure about going SNA versus SNFO

[NCHopeful]

I'm going to try to keep this short. I was intent on becoming an officer in the military after college, and it wasn't until a few months ago that I narrowed my focus to Navy, and particularly Naval Aviation, as what I think I would most enjoy. I think the culture of Naval Aviation sounds more like my sort of thing versus Subs or Surface Warfare, and because I'm solid on numbers and memorization, I was able to get a decent score on the ASTB. I initially wasn't sure about flying planes, though, despite hearing from a lot of people, including a couple Navy friends and some individuals on this board, about how I had "pilot numbers." I don't have any physical disqualifiers either, at least to my knowledge.

A couple things turned me on to putting NFO first, including hearing about an increased role in mission planning and more work with the computer-based systems, but after more reading, I'm starting to wonder if the degree to which the Pilot is involved in that stuff is dependent on how much the Pilot wants to be involved in that stuff and the airframe one gets assigned. I also preferred the NFO's shorter ADSO, but the more I look into it, the more I think rewards and opportunities from staying in would beat what I'd get by getting out.

The biggest reason, though, for me having trepidation about putting down Pilot, which I've struggled to articulate, is that I just don't know if I would be any good with the actual stick. I'm pretty confident that with academics, I can do really well if I'm willing to work for it, but I don't know that I wouldn't just end up a mediocre, or, even worse, flunked-out pilot by virtue of just not having that talent.

Is this a valid reason for requesting SNFO first, and not SNA? Are my worries complete garbage, and it will most likely be entirely possible for me to be a great pilot if I have the academics down, listen well, and work my ass off at it? Because of a submission hang-up, I've got some time to think it over before I make the final call.

 

[ProwlerPilot]

Here's my $.02:

It comes down to what you WANT to do and what you think will give you the greatest satisfaction. Do you think being in control of the aircraft, making it do what you want, being directly responsible for the lives of those in the aircraft with you is exciting or scary? It also depends a bit on what type of aircraft you endeavor to fly. The back seater in a Super Hornet is very engaged in the flying aspect of the mission, in addition to th tactical side. Helping with checklists, looking for other aircraft, talking the pilot off the ledge when he's having a crappy night behind the boat.... On the other side, if you are an NFO in say a P-3 (or then new P-8) then your aviation involvment is minimal. Your office is in the air, but the actual navigation / aviation role is much less as the tactical / analytical side of the mission becomes your focus. Plus your window is a lot smaller to see out! Similar with E-2s. Before anyone gets offended, I'm not saying one is better than the other, just different. Still crucial to air superiority and attack, just in different ways and with differing degrees of "aviating" involvement.

As for worrying about the monkey skills, that is almost impossible to determine up front. I say choose what you want to do, not what you think you can or can't do. If you want to be a pilot, you'll figure out a way. Very few of us ever had our hands on the controls of an aircraft before the first time we got into a plane at Whiting or Corpus. The training is there to make you good. Handle the academics, know the numbers, and show up ready to go and the rest will take care itself. I personally walked to the plane on my first flight saying to myself, I don't know jack about flying, so no matter what happens, this will be an improvement of my current situation!!!

I think the key to your post is "willing to work for it" You need to think about what you want to do if you knew 100% you would succeed at whatever you picked. If the answer is pilot, then go for it with no fear. If the answer is NFO, the same. But don't go NFO because you really want to be a pilot but are afraid of failing. And don't go pilot because everyone tells you it's "cooler" You need to go for the job you want and then own it.

 

[picklesuit]

I can only speak to the P-3 experience, so here you go:
You will fly much less as an NFO than a Pilot, as the requirements are a lot less for NFO's. you will be very active in much of the prosecution phase of flight, but at the end of the day the pilot determines how well it goes as he will be the one to get you to the expendable, IP, weps release point on altitude/airspeed.

I was a more involved pilot/MC than most, and it was very rewarding. A lot of my friends just "drove the bus" and had fun doing that.

Don't worry about the stick skills, we will teach you that.
Pickle

 

[Fallonflyr]

If you are not sure if you want to be a pilot, go NFO. Leave the pilot slot for some one who was born to do it.

 

[yakboyslim]

If you are not sure if you want to be a pilot, go NFO. Leave the pilot slot for some one who was born to do it.

With all due respect, I have to completely disagree. The fact is it is not, a second class position that should ONLY be filled by those SNA applicants with weak eyesight, bad ASTB scores or weak conviction. Thankfully it is not. It's a different skill set, a different job and different people. Not better, not worse. I don't think people should be taking NFO slots anymore than pilot slots if they were any less born to do it.


The bottom line is you won't know what you were born to do - until you do it. You can't decide, or at least I couldn't decide, if pilot or NFO is best for you since you can't really imagine from the outside what they actually do. I'm happy with where I am, in fact I know I would prefer it over pilot.

If aviating is what you want to be doing, then going NFO is a roll of the dice. Like ProwlerPilot said NFO is a blanket term for some seriously different positions. If you go NFO and want to be active in the cockpit, you are going to need to ensure you get jets, but any plane will put you in an important position from the mission side of things.

 

[Fallonflyr]

With all due respect, I have to completely disagree. The fact is it is not, a second class position that should ONLY be filled by those SNA applicants with weak eyesight, bad ASTB scores or weak conviction. Thankfully it is not. It's a different skill set, a different job and different people. Not better, not worse. I don't think people should be taking NFO slots anymore than pilot slots if they were any less born to do it.


The bottom line is you won't know what you were born to do - until you do it. You can't decide, or at least I couldn't decide, if pilot or NFO is best for you since you can't really imagine from the outside what they actually do. I'm happy with where I am, in fact I know I would prefer it over pilot.

If aviating is what you want to be doing, then going NFO is a roll of the dice. Like ProwlerPilot said NFO is a blanket term for some seriously different positions. If you go NFO and want to be active in the cockpit, you are going to need to ensure you get jets, but any plane will put you in an important position from the mission side of things.

In no way am I implying that NFO is a second class position. The poster stated that he would like to go into aviation but did not know if he wanted to be a pilot or NFO. I am saying that if he doesn't already have the burning desire to be a PILOT, he should go NFO. He stated that he was fully qualified to be a SNA so this has nothing to do with his eyesight, ASTB scores or conviction. By the way, I knew I was born to be a pilot long before I ever took my first flight.

 

[Renegade One]

In no way am I implying that NFO is a second class position. ...I knew I was born to be a pilot long before I ever took my first flight.

In fairness to OP's heartfelt request for advice, I can only say that I guess much has changed, and that may very well be a "good thing". I'd be very happy to understand that many of today's Naval Flight Officers "opted" for that…for whatever personal reasons…when they had the creds/quals to go SNA.

I don't recall that that was the case back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I, too, "knew I was born to be a pilot"…I just didn't have the eyes to go that way.

Understand, too, that I embraced signing up for NFO when none of us had any freaking idea what any of that meant…except that we could FLY. Nothing else mattered.

 

[croakerfish]

The biggest reason, though, for me having trepidation about putting down Pilot, which I've struggled to articulate, is that I just don't know if I would be any good with the actual stick. I'm pretty confident that with academics, I can do really well if I'm willing to work for it, but I don't know that I wouldn't just end up a mediocre, or, even worse, flunked-out pilot by virtue of just not having that talent.

Is this a valid reason for requesting SNFO first, and not SNA? Are my worries complete garbage, and it will most likely be entirely possible for me to be a great pilot if I have the academics down, listen well, and work my ass off at it? Because of a submission hang-up, I've got some time to think it over before I make the final call.

There are people out there who are unable to pick up the monkey skills fast enough to stay in flight school, but they are rare. Most people with less-than-average natural aptitude get a few kicks in the dick grade-wise but figure it out and do just fine later on. That's only a big deal if you really want jets... People usually only get attrited from Primary when they fail multiple things repeatedly. More often than not, ridiculously hard work will get you through.

Just put SNA then SNFO. From the outside looking in, there's not really a good way to determine what you'd really be better at/enjoy more anyway. Take what you get selected for then give it hell. If you go SNA and can't figure out how to land a PEL to save your life, you could get redesignated SNFO anyway (assuming you didn't have any other major deficiencies with academics/knowledge, NFO slots available, etc). The reverse is probably not going to happen.

 

[zippy]

I'm going to try to keep this short. I was intent on becoming an officer in the military after college, and it wasn't until a few months ago that I narrowed my focus to Navy, and particularly Naval Aviation, as what I think I would most enjoy. I think the culture of Naval Aviation sounds more like my sort of thing versus Subs or Surface Warfare, and because I'm solid on numbers and memorization, I was able to get a decent score on the ASTB. I initially wasn't sure about flying planes, though, despite hearing from a lot of people, including a couple Navy friends and some individuals on this board, about how I had "pilot numbers." I don't have any physical disqualifiers either, at least to my knowledge.

A couple things turned me on to putting NFO first, including hearing about an increased role in mission planning and more work with the computer-based systems, but after more reading, I'm starting to wonder if the degree to which the Pilot is involved in that stuff is dependent on how much the Pilot wants to be involved in that stuff and the airframe one gets assigned. I also preferred the NFO's shorter ADSO, but the more I look into it, the more I think rewards and opportunities from staying in would beat what I'd get by getting out.

The biggest reason, though, for me having trepidation about putting down Pilot, which I've struggled to articulate, is that I just don't know if I would be any good with the actual stick. I'm pretty confident that with academics, I can do really well if I'm willing to work for it, but I don't know that I wouldn't just end up a mediocre, or, even worse, flunked-out pilot by virtue of just not having that talent.

Is this a valid reason for requesting SNFO first, and not SNA? Are my worries complete garbage, and it will most likely be entirely possible for me to be a great pilot if I have the academics down, listen well, and work my ass off at it? Because of a submission hang-up, I've got some time to think it over before I make the final call.

I can teach a monkey how to fly. In fact, some of the Marines I've turned into Jet pilots were pretty close to that skill wise in the beginning. What I can't teach is someone how to do is work for it. Even at its highest attrition rate during the transition from T-34C to T-6B, 8 out of 10 students made it through the primary VTs and into an advanced training pipeline. Thats not a sure bet, but if you show up dedicated to working your ass off and don't develop some medical condition (like debilitating airsickness etc.) that prevents you from making it into the program you'll have a fair shot. I personally would much rather work with worse sticks who work hard than mediocre sticks who don't put a lot of effort into it.

 

[ProwlerPilot]

You should pick what YOU WANT to do. It doesn't matter if you were "born to fly" or decided at the last second because you watched Top Gun one more time and convinced yourself it looks awesome. This is your decision and yours alone. It has nothing to do with how many people are in line behind you, what they want, or how long they've wanted it. When they ask you the question, be selfish. It will be your life for the next 6-10 years after all.

 

[NCHopeful]

I can teach a monkey how to fly. In fact, some of the Marines I've turned into Jet pilots were pretty close to that skill wise in the beginning. What I can't teach is someone how to do is work for it. Even at its highest attrition rate during the transition from T-34C to T-6B, 8 out of 10 students made it through the primary VTs and into an advanced training pipeline. Thats not a sure bet, but if you show up dedicated to working your ass off and don't develop some medical condition (like debilitating airsickness etc.) that prevents you from making it into the program you'll have a fair shot. I personally would much rather work with worse sticks who work hard than mediocre sticks who don't put a lot of effort into it.

This is awesome. After reading everything you've all said and talking things over with ProwlerPilot, I've decided to email my OSO and have her switch my packet to SNA/SNFO/EOD before it gets submitted. I'll be happy if I get any of my three choices and be pumped about the chance to work my ass off and do things I would never have been able to do had I stayed in the civilian world and gone to law school, like I used to plan.

Fallonflyr, it's not that I didn't ever have a burning desire to be a pilot. I wanted that ever since my friend's dad was playing a flight simulator game in front of me when I was 4 and he was screaming about his missiles not working. (I told him he was clearly out of missiles, as the HUD showed they had been fired, and he needed to tail the enemy aircraft and use guns.) My issue was that I was nervous about going in straight as a civilian who knew jack shit about planes, and wasn't going to kid myself and assume that I must be some natural "Maverick" who can fly on instinct. It sounds, though, like the Navy has extremely dedicated and talented instructors who will be able to teach almost anyone who is prepared to listen to them and dedicate themselves to understanding all the given materials and taking their advice. Assuming I would be some natural flier would be extremely arrogance, but after hearing from everyone, I don't think it's arrogant to assume that if I don't have any physical or medical issues, have the academic background, and, most importantly, have motivation, between the instructors and the best of my classmates I'll have the support and guidance I need to become good at it.

I'm going to request a pilot slot because I want one and I'm willing to work for it and if I get it, period. I'm also going to put NFO second because they're a critical part of the same community and their missions as a whole also sound highly enjoyable and fulfilling, not just because that's a "second chance to fly." If anyone is still worried about me taking someone else's pilot slot, the selection board still has their chance to make the final call.

 

[pilot_man]

With all due respect, I have to completely disagree. The fact is it is not, a second class position that should ONLY be filled by those SNA applicants with weak eyesight, bad ASTB scores or weak conviction. Thankfully it is not. It's a different skill set, a different job and different people. Not better, not worse. I don't think people should be taking NFO slots anymore than pilot slots if they were any less born to do it.

In our (your) community what you said is not true.

To the OP, if you played sports, video games, or have any sort of hand / eye coordination then you should be fine. Hard work goes a long way in this profession.

 

[Jim123]

Hard work goes a long way in this profession.

Was, is, and will always be true. Dumber people than you have passed and smarter people have failed.

 

[FlyBoyd]

...and don't ever not try something because you are afraid of failure. It is a slippery slope that will have you growing old in your home town because you were too scared to break the comfortable mold you live in.

 

[Fallonflyr]

This is awesome. After reading everything you've all said and talking things over with ProwlerPilot, I've decided to email my OSO and have her switch my packet to SNA/SNFO/EOD before it gets submitted. I'll be happy if I get any of my three choices and be pumped about the chance to work my ass off and do things I would never have been able to do had I stayed in the civilian world and gone to law school, like I used to plan.

Fallonflyr, it's not that I didn't ever have a burning desire to be a pilot. I wanted that ever since my friend's dad was playing a flight simulator game in front of me when I was 4 and he was screaming about his missiles not working. (I told him he was clearly out of missiles, as the HUD showed they had been fired, and he needed to tail the enemy aircraft and use guns.) My issue was that I was nervous about going in straight as a civilian who knew jack shit about planes, and wasn't going to kid myself and assume that I must be some natural "Maverick" who can fly on instinct. It sounds, though, like the Navy has extremely dedicated and talented instructors who will be able to teach almost anyone who is prepared to listen to them and dedicate themselves to understanding all the given materials and taking their advice. Assuming I would be some natural flier would be extremely arrogance, but after hearing from everyone, I don't think it's arrogant to assume that if I don't have any physical or medical issues, have the academic background, and, most importantly, have motivation, between the instructors and the best of my classmates I'll have the support and guidance I need to become good at it.

I'm going to request a pilot slot because I want one and I'm willing to work for it and if I get it, period. I'm also going to put NFO second because they're a critical part of the same community and their missions as a whole also sound highly enjoyable and fulfilling, not just because that's a "second chance to fly." If anyone is still worried about me taking someone else's pilot slot, the selection board still has their chance to make the final call.

Good on you!