NEWS UAV 'Combat' Flight Time?!

[jmcquate]

So Cheetos dust covered t-shirt, a pair of khaki shorts your mom bought you and flip-flops it is........of course with nomex gloves with the finger tips cut off.

 

[Flash]

A big part of the MQ-1/9 problem is big USAF's poor personnel policies. I saw this first hand with another 'High Demand/Low Density' asset where they begged and pleaded for relief to 'fix' their personal issue then frittered away the time they were given. I saw it again when they cut hundreds of officers over the past few years in 'over,Anne's' specialties then turned around and begged some of them to cut back. They out the Navy's personnel policies to shame.

A bigger picture view would not to look at it as a DoD issue and not just a USAF one. The Army is cutting hundreds of CWO helo Pilots with the OH-58's going away and there are plenty of Navy aviators looking for jobs after FOSx2. Even a small percentage of these well-trained aviators would go a long way to alieving the current shortage of UAV pilots. Give them a 6 year contract/obligation no matter if they get promoted to give the USAF time to unscrew itself and folks a grunted job for 6 years, I figure a few score would take it.

So DoD tried to create a separate medal to recognize their service. Remember all the wharrrgabbl that resulted? Because it 'outranked' (whatever the fuck that means) the Bronze Star?

I don't mind the medal but it should rate below current 'valor' awards.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Why do non combat Marines wear cammies?



FOD free uniforms on the flight deck that we fly off of.

Walk into a MEF Planning exercise: "Who is that Aerial Recce SME guy? Did he not get the memo that we're in flight suits? Oh he doesn't have wings? He's not an aviator and therefore doesn't know shit."

It's a cultural thing. "Welcome to the MAG: we get that you fly airplanes around, but you don't get to wear the uniform- why? Because we're better than you." Yet a metric shit ton of people wear flight suits beyond just Pilots and NFOs.

Why does it matter so much to you that UAV guys don't wear flight suits?

Marines wear utilities because that is the uniform Marines wear in the field and most of the time in garrison. That was easy. Uniformity, simplicity, and the real possibility of "non combat" Marines seeing combat makes a lot of sense, but I think you already knew all of that.

Basically your argument is that UAV guys should wear flight suits because that's what pilots do? Or that other people who don't need flight suits have them so we need them too, and we shouldn't have to buy them? It's playing dress up.

UAV dudes do a lot of good work. It seems odd to me that they would wear flight suits. Do DASC guys wear them? ATC? Does anyone doubt their competence because they aren't wearing a costume?

It doesn't "matter so much to me". I'm curious why it's important to you.

 

[Pags]

Perhaps a unique UAV warfare device and uniform is warranted that way they're clearly identifiable as UAV drivers.

 

[Swanee]

UAV dudes do a lot of good work. It seems odd to me that they would wear flight suits. Do DASC guys wear them? ATC? Does anyone doubt their competence because they aren't wearing a costume?

It doesn't "matter so much to me". I'm curious why it's important to you.

It's a cultural thing, and it is important- even if you think it is just a costume. These guys want to look like a part of Marine Aviation. Flight suits do that. Nevermind the fact that the Marine Corps used to pay for it (starting in 1983) and did so until 2012, when a certain DCA and an Admiral shut it off. The current guy in the Pentagon standing in the way is an Admiral. He's been known to say that UAV guys are a scourge who don't belong. Blocking one's ability to look like the team that they belong to does that.

Ribbons, shooting badges, warfare devices, covers (hats and berets for other services), hell even the EGA... are all just costume pieces- but they mean something to those who wear them.

And hell no, no one should have to buy something that is issued out to EVERYONE else who wears them for free.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I don't mind the medal but it should rate below current 'valor' awards.

Plenty of non-combat, non-valor awards "rank" above combat/valor awards. The DSM, which is pretty much an EOT award for flags, ranks above the Silver Star. The Defense Superior Service and Legion of Merit are in the order of precedence above the DFC and Bronze Star. "Non-combat valor" medals like the NMCM also are above the Bronze Star in precedence. The harrumphing over the "rank" of the Distinguished Warfare medal was based on a false premise. Proximity to bullets flying does not equal the precedence of the medal.

 

[Flash]

Plenty of non-combat, non-valor awards "rank" above combat/valor awards. The DSM, which is pretty much an EOT award for flags, ranks above the Silver Star. The Defense Superior Service and Legion of Merit are in the order of precedence above the DFC and Bronze Star. "Non-combat valor" medals like the NMCM also are above the Bronze Star in precedence. The harrumphing over the "rank" of the Distinguished Warfare medal was based on a false premise. Proximity to bullets flying does not equal the precedence of the medal.

Since it is a combat-related award and it should be put in the appropriate place in relation to other combat-related medals, which would be below those that you can only receive for being in an actual combat zone. Rank it next to the Aerial Achievement Medal, that is a more appropriate placement for it since it is of similar purpose. And yes, placement and precedence matter.

Just because folks make a contribution to the war doesn't always mean they get the same recognition as those who actually put their lives on the line in combat, even if it is hanging out on a huge FOB with 10,000 of your closest friends. One of the soldiers who had the biggest impact on WWII but didn't serve in combat, Lt Gen Leslie Groves, got a standard non-combat award for his work leading the Manhattan Project. Not everyone can be winner.

Finally, UAV guys rate flight suits as far as I am concerned. The USAF has long let satellite and missile folks wear bags and UAV guys are a lot closer to actually flying something than they are. It is a little thing and not letting them do so just strikes me as being small, a lot like the Marines objecting to regular Navy folks wearing our desert version of the NWU's because it was too similar to their desert cammies.

 

[danpass]

So you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Log flights at least used to be explicitly excluded from getting air medal points.

The whole USAF UAV manning problem is interesting. UAVs have made a huge contribution to the recent wars yet the service and the pilots don't seem to value their own contributions. It will be interesting to see what levers USAF pulls to solve this problem because it's not as though demand for UAVs will go away or decrease any time soon.

What sort of recognition does an intel person receive when they make a significant contribution? Perhaps the same sort of thing can be applied to UAV personnel.

The intel person and the UAV person both make meaningful contributions akin to the 'assist' in basketball. What they did (or didn't do/avoided) contributed to a positive result.

 

[Slingblade]

I could see UAS guys maybe receiving air medals / dfc if they really do something big but neither of those with combat Vs. have to actually be exposed to a threat for those. And to differentiate aviators air medals earned by points from the UAS allow aviators to earn combat action ribbons if they meet the same criteria in the air as those that earn it on the ground.

 

[Flash]

I could see UAS guys maybe receiving air medals / dfc if they really do something big but neither of those with combat Vs. have to actually be exposed to a threat for those. And to differentiate aviators air medals earned by points from the UAS allow aviators to earn combat action ribbons if they meet the same criteria in the air as those that earn it on the ground.

That was proposed a while ago by the USAF but shot down by the other services, and I think you would have to change the law to make that happen.

 

[Slingblade]

That was proposed a while ago by the USAF but shot down by the other services, and I think you would have to change the law to make that happen.

Air Force would give them out like candy probably anyway. DFC was on a point system like the air medal through the Korean War I believe. Given the amount of threat aircrew endured during that time especially during WWII I can definitely see that as justified.

 

[Flash]

Air Force would give them out like candy probably anyway. DFC was on a point system like the air medal through the Korean War I believe. Given the amount of threat aircrew endured during that time especially during WWII I can definitely see that as justified.

It was dependent on the theater, service and time but DFC's were given out on a 'point' system for a time while also being awarded for individual acts like today. Just like the Bronze Star was awarded to all US Army infantryman who earned the CIB in WWII, or the Navy Cross was awarded for valor at the beginning of WWII relatively liberally because the Silver Star wasn't available to sailors or Marines yet and the Medal Of Honor was awarded for peacetime bravery in the Navy until WWII.

Times change and so does medal and badge criteria but I think there should be a clear and inviolable line between combat valor awards and non-combat awards. Of course I think our medals, ribbons and badges have gotten out of control in general with a 4-year Airman who has 'deployed' to Korea and Germany walks around with more ribbons than Jimmy Doolittle at the end of WWII. I think Phrogdriver's column the other week about our awards system was a pretty good argument.

 

[MIDNJAC]

What sort of recognition does an intel person receive when they make a significant contribution?

There is currently no standard because what you mention has actually, never happened in the USN

 

[Uncle Fester]

Since it is a combat-related award and it should be put in the appropriate place in relation to other combat-related medals, which would be below those that you can only receive for being in an actual combat zone. Rank it next to the Aerial Achievement Medal, that is a more appropriate placement for it since it is of similar purpose. And yes, placement and precedence matter.

Just because folks make a contribution to the war doesn't always mean they get the same recognition as those who actually put their lives on the line in combat, even if it is hanging out on a huge FOB with 10,000 of your closest friends. One of the soldiers who had the biggest impact on WWII but didn't serve in combat, Lt Gen Leslie Groves, got a standard non-combat award for his work leading the Manhattan Project. Not everyone can be winner.

Not following your argument there. Leslie Groves received the DSM for the Manhattan Project, which was and still would be the end-of-tour for leading a big Stateside project at the GO/FO level, and which is a higher precedence than the Silver Star. He received the Legion of Merit, which is above the Bronze Star, for building the Pentagon. I'm not arguing that placement and precedence don't matter; I'm just saying that the argument that combat-valor awards rate higher than non- isn't true.

Finally, UAV guys rate flight suits as far as I am concerned. The USAF has long let satellite and missile folks wear bags and UAV guys are a lot closer to actually flying something than they are. It is a little thing and not letting them do so just strikes me as being small, a lot like the Marines objecting to regular Navy folks wearing our desert version of the NWU's because it was too similar to their desert cammies.

My philosophy for UAS guys wearing bags is psychological. I want guys who are flying an airplane to think and act like it. I wrote an Approach article while I was doing Fire Scout on CRM for drones. It's way too easy for guys to slip out of the mindset that, though they may personally have their asses on the ground, they're still driving a large airplane through airspace, which is often full of things like CBs, icing, birds, and other airplanes filled with meatbags. They're not just watchstanders - they're aircrew. Having them wearing bags and earning wings reinforces that mindset and helps keep it there.

 

[Flash]

Not following your argument there. Leslie Groves received the DSM for the Manhattan Project, which was and still would be the end-of-tour for leading a big Stateside project at the GO/FO level, and which is a higher precedence than the Silver Star. He received the Legion of Merit, which is above the Bronze Star, for building the Pentagon. I'm not arguing that placement and precedence don't matter; I'm just saying that the argument that combat-valor awards rate higher than non- isn't true.

Sorry I wasn't more clear, I think the 'Distinguished Warfare Medal' ought to rate below existing combat awards like the Bronze Star and Air Medal, that is all. I have no objection to it as a medal but it should 'know its role'.

My philosophy for UAS guys wearing bags is psychological. I want guys who are flying an airplane to think and act like it. I wrote an Approach article while I was doing Fire Scout on CRM for drones. It's way too easy for guys to slip out of the mindset that, though they may personally have their asses on the ground, they're still driving a large airplane through airspace, which is often full of things like CBs, icing, birds, and other airplanes filled with meatbags. They're not just watchstanders - they're aircrew. Having them wearing bags and earning wings reinforces that mindset and helps keep it there.

I agree wholeheartedly, UAV folks rate a badge a heck of a lot more than IWC folks so why not give them one and let 'em wear flight suits too?