NEWS UAV 'Combat' Flight Time?!

[Flash]

You have no argument from me there, and I also read that as a requirement in the original OEF/OIF message I linked. My point I guess was less about the UAV argument, but rather for anyone around here who might rate the OIR medal based on flying a manned aircraft. As many are aware, for a typical CVN deployment, meeting the 30 or 60 day wickets is a bit challenging. 30 is probably no chance, whereas 60 is really only possible on a long enough deployment with a long enough time in the AOR.

It is ironic that AMC guys get those wickets a lot easier, particularly the 60 day one, with their multiple trips in country compared to fighter/bomber/attack guys based outside the country since every flight in or out is considered the equivalent to one day for the campaign medals.

 

[DocT]

The way the OIR requirement is written it pretty much rules out aviation unless, as you said, it's an exceptionally long deployment to hit the 60 "day" mark. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it for strike guys but assault trash like my friends and I will likely just continue to tally air medal points only.

 

[Pags]

The way the OIR requirement is written it pretty much rules out aviation unless, as you said, it's an exceptionally long deployment to hit the 60 "day" mark. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it for strike guys but assault trash like my friends and I will likely just continue to tally air medal points only.

So you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Log flights at least used to be explicitly excluded from getting air medal points.

The whole USAF UAV manning problem is interesting. UAVs have made a huge contribution to the recent wars yet the service and the pilots don't seem to value their own contributions. It will be interesting to see what levers USAF pulls to solve this problem because it's not as though demand for UAVs will go away or decrease any time soon.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Thus my tongue-in-cheek comment about robot nerds knowing their place.

There's been a lot of pushback about giving UAS/RPA guys recognition for their work. Then everyone's surprised when they quit in droves. If you want quality people doing the job, you have to pay and recognize them accordingly. Otherwise, surprise! nobody wants to do it.

 

[Swanee]

Thus my tongue-in-cheek comment about robot nerds knowing their place.

There's been a lot of pushback about giving UAS/RPA guys recognition for their work. Then everyone's surprised when they quit in droves. If you want quality people doing the job, you have to pay and recognize them accordingly. Otherwise, surprise! nobody wants to do it.

"Hey gents, you're the future of Marine Aviation, welcome to the MAG! You've got the same responsibility as a pilot in an airplane, but you're not in the airplane. What's that? Oh, we're not going to train you like a real pilot, but we expect the same professionalism and performance. What's that? Oh no, we want to be able to FFPB you if you screw up, and we're going to hold you under a microscope and won't give you any of the lee way the manned guys get around here, so we'll know- but we're not going to give you the benefits either- no flight pay, no bonuses, no money for flight suits (even though we give that stuff to LCAC drivers and Plane Captains and pretty much anyone else who wants one), no wings, no nothing. Here are a bunch of deployments. Have fun!" Followed closely with, "Hey, why can't we keep any of our Lts or Capts?"

TINS- we're expected to wear flight suits and boots to work as the uniform of the day, yet we have to buy our own. We make our LCpl flight crews buy expensive gear because a few people in the Navy/Marine Corps have a hard on against a community of people and what to treat them like second class citizens. Then those same people don't understand why we have such retention problems.

 

[Pags]

Thus my tongue-in-cheek comment about robot nerds knowing their place.

There's been a lot of pushback about giving UAS/RPA guys recognition for their work. Then everyone's surprised when they quit in droves. If you want quality people doing the job, you have to pay and recognize them accordingly. Otherwise, surprise! nobody wants to do it.

Precisely. The organizations are sending a pretty clear message that they don't give a crap about the work the UAV drivers are doing and they consider it unworthy of professional recognition. Sure, they're not hanging their lives on the line but that's the entire point. And they're also working very hard (even harder because of manning) to do the work that they're being asked to do and their contributions have been fairly significant. Of course this is how we got things like the Air Medal and flight pay a long time ago when early pilots weren't understood by the traditional commanders and methods to keep up the morale of pilots was needed.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think the time to take the Reaper/Pred community seriously began a number of years ago. They have a horrible job (IMO), don't get much credit for it, and still contribute very significantly to the overall effort. I'd challenge anyone to make an informed argument against those simple statements. That being said, they do not incur any personal risk of injury/death/capture/beheading/you name it. I don't personally have a problem with them getting the campaign medal. I'm on the fence about air medals, but I think that might be appropriate on a case by case basis, much like our individual (rather than the strike flight that everyone gets……sorry if I am using incorrect terms), given a particularly important mission or whatnot. Combat pay or logging combat flight hours; I don't support that. You have to have physically been there to rate those things in my book.

 

[Uncle Fester]

So DoD tried to create a separate medal to recognize their service. Remember all the wharrrgabbl that resulted? Because it 'outranked' (whatever the fuck that means) the Bronze Star?

 

[jmcquate]

Is the chest candy that important now, or is this about bashing the AF (not that there's anything wrong with that)?

 

[Pags]

From a tracking/admin perspective it makes sense to track operational hours vice training hours. If they want to log that time in green, red, or purple ink, who cares?

in conducting their combat flights they complete all the same tasks of the kill chain as any other aviator does.

They obviously need some form of professional recognition for the work they're doing. The service/COCOM needs to recognize their contributions. Valor medals are pretty much out but there needs to be a way for their time and efforts to be properly acknowledged.

 

[Swanee]

Combat pay or logging combat flight hours; I don't support that. You have to have physically been there to rate those things in my book.

Hazard pay I completely understand. But "green ink" is an important differentiation. The guy running SCAR in Syria from a GCS in Syracuse, NY is doing a lot more than the dude doing CONUS training missions. The dudes following the same bad guy around for months before we kill him are also contributing a huge amount. I'd argue their contributions are worth a lot more than the F-15 and F-22 guys flying CAP. Yet those guys are logging their version of "green ink".

 

[Treetop Flyer]

"Hey gents, you're the future of Marine Aviation, welcome to the MAG! You've got the same responsibility as a pilot in an airplane, but you're not in the airplane. What's that? Oh, we're not going to train you like a real pilot, but we expect the same professionalism and performance. What's that? Oh no, we want to be able to FFPB you if you screw up, and we're going to hold you under a microscope and won't give you any of the lee way the manned guys get around here, so we'll know- but we're not going to give you the benefits either- no flight pay, no bonuses, no money for flight suits (even though we give that stuff to LCAC drivers and Plane Captains and pretty much anyone else who wants one), no wings, no nothing. Here are a bunch of deployments. Have fun!" Followed closely with, "Hey, why can't we keep any of our Lts or Capts?"

TINS- we're expected to wear flight suits and boots to work as the uniform of the day, yet we have to buy our own. We make our LCpl flight crews buy expensive gear because a few people in the Navy/Marine Corps have a hard on against a community of people and what to treat them like second class citizens. Then those same people don't understand why we have such retention problems.

It seems like the obvious answer for the flight suits is to not wear them. Why is that even a thing?

As for logging combat time, that makes perfect sense. Awards for doing the job well and pay or bonuses as needed makes sense too.

 

[Uncle Fester]

It seems like the obvious answer for the flight suits is to not wear them. Why is that even a thing?

"You have the training and responsibilities for flying an airplane around. But don't dress like the *real* aviators. It's important that we keep their morale up."

 

[Treetop Flyer]

"You have the training and responsibilities for flying an airplane around. But don't dress like the *real* aviators. It's important that we keep their morale up."

Is the console going to burst into flames? Does it feel better to dress up like "real aviators?" It seems like if they felt like real aviators they wouldn't want to dress like something they aren't. The army doesn't even wear flight suits anymore. Why would a guy sitting at a computer?

 

[Swanee]

It seems like the obvious answer for the flight suits is to not wear them. Why is that even a thing?

Why do non combat Marines wear cammies?

Is the console going to burst into flames? Does it feel better to dress up like "real aviators?" It seems like if they felt like real aviators they wouldn't want to dress like something they aren't. The army doesn't even wear flight suits anymore. Why would a guy sitting at a computer?

FOD free uniforms on the flight deck that we fly off of.

Walk into a MEF Planning exercise: "Who is that Aerial Recce SME guy? Did he not get the memo that we're in flight suits? Oh he doesn't have wings? He's not an aviator and therefore doesn't know shit."

It's a cultural thing. "Welcome to the MAG: we get that you fly airplanes around, but you don't get to wear the uniform- why? Because we're better than you." Yet a metric shit ton of people wear flight suits beyond just Pilots and NFOs.

Why does it matter so much to you that UAV guys don't wear flight suits?