TOP GUN Misunderstood

[MIDNJAC]

LVL I is RAG complete
LVL II is qualified copilot
LVL III is combat aircraft commander
LVL IV(I) was a squadron level patch wearer (usually a super JO or O-4)
LVL V was reserved for NSAWC and weapons school guys

Yeah, that is what I thought it was. So really no comparison tactically, aside from adopting the same nomenclature we use.

 

[wlawr005]

Oh yeah, by no means was I comparing the tactics and stuff...just saying the process was fucking stupid hard. I assumed that same level of NSAWC ass pain (getting shit for which color marker you use, how you stand when you talk, etc) was universal.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Yes, there is that stuff, but there is a reason behind the seemingly silly process. The airlite pens may be a little bit nitpicky, but I think the standardization of the teaching and learning format is a really good thing. With that comes some minutea that seems asinine at first.

 

[Flash]

Atsugi O'Club is now the 'Atsugi Convention Center'---I shit you not.

Is it still used as an O'Club? When I was in Japan just a few years ago it still had a rep as a pretty good one.

A couple of clubs that were still a pretty good time last time I was in WESTPAC were Iwakuni, Misawa and Kadena. Kadena and Misawa were a bit stiff since they were USAF clubs but loosened up on the weekend nights (except Kadena on Friday nights which was an all hands 'country night'). Iwakuni was in the same building as the E clubs but they did a good job seperating it from the others, small but good if the MAG squadrons were there. Also just a 50 yard stumble to the rooms though one of JOs even got in trouble in that short amount of time, he was 'Forrest' from then on.

 

[C420sailor]

Is it still used as an O'Club? When I was in Japan just a few years ago it still had a rep as a pretty good one.

The area with the bar and cruise plaques is still officers only. It gets pretty rowdy now and then, I just think the new name is pretty lame.

 

[Catmando]

Since the OP asked about inconsistencies, then here are a few.
Navy squadrons don't send paired pilot and WSO through TOPGUN. If there is a pilot and WSO from the same squadron that get selected, then they might get to go through the class together, but this is extremely rare.
XO / COs might fly during the class, but that isn't who I would be worried about. The TOPGUN IP who just went through their BFM syllabus on the other hand, that's another story.
Dudes fail out on a pretty regular basis;. Maybe things actually are different than they used to be.
Like has been mentioned, this isn't the Navy it was 20 / 10 / or even 5 years ago.

Apparently, NFWS now bears little resemblance to the original NKX NFWS, also known as unit III, Top Gun, and later TOPGUN.
Way back in the day:

• Only four F-4 crews went through as a class, and no others. … Two crews from the East Coast, two from the West Coast and only one from each squadron.
• Each squadron CO solely determined who the two individuals went whether they were already crewed together or not.
• The two guys the squadron sent always flew together during the course. Each squadron provided a dedicated aircraft and maintenance crew.
• While the GS subjects were as diverse as public speaking and Soviet history, the flying was strictly ACM (mostly BFM) and section, "loose deuce" tactics.
• Although F-4s were very good bombers, there was no Air-to-Ground training whatsoever.
• Nobody ever failed the course that I know of.

Remember that TOPGUN was established for a very specific and narrow purpose: To correct the dismal kill ratio F-4s had in the air war over North Vietnam against Soviet MiGs. Indeed the school accomplished that mission superbly and made history!

​

 

[Hotdogs]

In helo land, back in the day, there was about 50 hours of classified CBT you had to do to upgrade in addition to lectures and flights. There was no PQS, but there were about a hundred flight grade cards that had to be signed off. Can't speak to the jet world, but the whole system makes getting qual'ed a tough process.

Why would Navy helos need a division lead qual? Genuinely curious.

 

[jmcquate]

Sort of a related question to the thread………how would one get orders to a VFC? Min quals and rush the squadron, or something more formal?

 

[zipmartin]

Sort of a related question to the thread………how would one get orders to a VFC? Min quals and rush the squadron, or something more formal?

21 years ago when I was a TAR in VFC-12, that would have been the case for a SELRES. No idea what it's like now.

 

[helolumpy]

Why would Navy helos need a division lead qual? Genuinely curious.

Dipping sonar helos would routinely operate in pairs doing ASW.
I know we fly dual-ship CSAR and SOF support, but in Vietnam, CSAR was single ship. I don't know when it changed.

I've never heard of helo crews training for division lead though.

 

[Schnugg]

Alcohol problem in the service????? What???

I don't drink any more...then again I don't drink any less.

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

Alcohol problem in the service????? What???

I don't drink any more...then again I don't drink any less.

I always understood it was only abuse if you were spilling it, thank goodness I never abused it.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Sort of a related question to the thread………how would one get orders to a VFC? Min quals and rush the squadron, or something more formal?

It is just another shore tour job you can get and/or request. No rushing required as far as I have seen. VFC =/= NSAWC or TOP GUN, though obviously VFC-Fallon works with them a lot.

 

[picklesuit]

I always liked drinking at the I-Bar at NZY....dice and popcorn and Aviator beer...close stumble to the Q...

 

[Renegade One]

Apparently, NFWS now bears little resemblance to the original NKX NFWS, also known as unit III, Top Gun, and later TOPGUN.
Way back in the day:

• Only four F-4 crews went through as a class, and no others. … Two crews from the East Coast, two from the West Coast and only one from each squadron.
• Each squadron CO solely determined who the two individuals went whether they were already crewed together or not.
• The two guys the squadron sent always flew together during the course. Each squadron provided a dedicated aircraft and maintenance crew.
• While the GS subjects were as diverse as public speaking and Soviet history, the flying was strictly ACM (mostly BFM) and section, "loose deuce" tactics.
• Although F-4s were very good bombers, there was no Air-to-Ground training whatsoever.
• Nobody ever failed the course that I know of.

Remember that TOPGUN was established for a very specific and narrow purpose: To correct the dismal kill ratio F-4s had in the air war over North Vietnam against Soviet MiGs. Indeed the school accomplished that mission superbly and made history!

View attachment 12360​

^^^ Truth as we knew it back in the day.