Top Gear rides the Dragon Lady

[xj220]

Only the newest P-3s have a GPS that we're allowed to fly off of (I'm still confused on which actually have it though if it's a CNS/ATM bird or AIP). We do have GPS that we used to "back ourselves up," but not legal for actual filing.

 

[Brett327]

I thought the justification for that was a lack of support for GPS with moving ships (since it's an active system using position and velocity computation based off of 4 GPS satellite position fixes and time) and certainly a lack of GPS approaches into durkistan prevented it being an efficacious IFR navigation system for ship-based/tactical military aircraft. Whereas land-based aircraft are more likely to have it (doesn't the E-6/P-3 have IFR GPS?) since they are strictly airfield based and tend to land at bigger airports which have established GPS instrument approaches, which makes it useful for them to have.

It's got nothing to do with that. The reason that many of them aren't IFR certified is because they lack an "integrity monitoring system." This has something to do with the fact that most TACAIR platforms use/make a lot of our own NAV waypoints using JMPS, so there's a greater possibility that something in the DAFIF may not be what it's supposed to be. That's my undertanding of the issue.

Brett

 

[BACONATOR]

It's got nothing to do with that. The reason that many of them aren't IFR certified is because they lack an "integrity monitoring system." This has something to do with the fact that most TACAIR platforms use/make a lot of our own NAV waypoints using JMPS, so there's a greater possibility that something in the DAFIF may not be what it's supposed to be. That's my undertanding of the issue.

Brett

Well, sure. We can create and fly waypoints on our MD as well. And despite being potentially extremely accurate, since it isn't DAFIF (obviously, if created on-demand in MPS/PFPS), then it can't be used for IFR navigation. What I'm wondering is why our airframes don't have a certified GPS complete with updated CARDS etc.

 

[Pags]

Well, sure. We can create and fly waypoints on our MD as well. And despite being potentially extremely accurate, since it isn't DAFIF (obviously, if created on-demand in MPS/PFPS), then it can't be used for IFR navigation. What I'm wondering is why our airframes don't have a certified GPS complete with updated CARDS etc.

$$$$.

I've heard the same reason that Brett gave. Our EGIs are too open ended, which makes them great in a tactical situation but leaves a lot of room for error if Johnny FNG decides to fat finger the lat/long for the point DOUCH.

 

[Gatordev]

Touche. However, using the "this one time" argument, you can argue for putting just about any piece of gear on the bird (this one det, when we evaced that SEAL that looked like Bruce Willis or that other time we evaced those people from Jurassic Park....). But I can still see how when it comes down to pounds and dollars how the VOR gets left out (having an a/c that can't fly IFR with GPS in the 21st century is mildly criminal though).

Big picture-wise, I agree, but my point is that every time I've been down off of C/S America (which has been three times, so far), someone needs to be medevaced at least once. Each time the weather has been poop but the crews have made it happen, albeit not really legally (or at least safely, per "Navy Safety"). So if I've been three for three, and there's always ships down there, chances are it's a pretty legitimate problem.

But let's look at another example... Folks have to travel between somewhere in FL and the Norfolk area often. Either for a det or to meet ships. As the TACANs start to become less reliable and/or some of the routes only have VOR/DMEs, moving on an IFR flight plan from one area to the other gets harder and harder, and hopefully the place you're going has a TACAN once you get there in case the weather is crap.

$$$$.

I've heard the same reason that Brett gave. Our EGIs are too open ended, which makes them great in a tactical situation but leaves a lot of room for error if Johnny FNG decides to fat finger the lat/long for the point DOUCH.

My understanding, as well. But there are handheld options out there. It seems like just rewording 3710 is the easiest, least expensive way to allow people to legally move around the airways. Hell, buy us handheld radios w/ VOR receivers built in (pretty cheap from Sporty's) and at least we can shoot legal ILSs (yeah, I know, you can do that, but a lot of us still can't).

On the Bravo side, there's talk that we'll be getting GPS units installed "soon." Not sure if that's a year or two years, but money has been set aside and NAVAIR is supposed to be testing them "soon." Good news, when/if they ever get here. Personally, I suspect I will be flying something else by the time they're here, but here's hoping.

 

[HooverPilot]

The east coast COD's (and next year the west coast COD's) will be IFR legal with the GPS. CNS/ATM is an amazing product. Digital approach plates, RNAV, GPS approaches - we're damn near getting into the '90's! Of course, the COD is already pretty loaded on the IFR front: VOR/TACAN/GPS/ILS/NDB/ADF/AACS/ACLS. I've never actually tuned an ADF or NDB, but the boxes work & in theory I could use it...

 

[MasterBates]

Some E-2s have a COTS Garmin GNS-530 that adds VOR/ILS in addition to Nav-Legal GPS. But it's not installed in all aircraft.

I like the Majic Box for certain things, but trying to finger-fu it while single engine and on fire with a pitch feel problem in the sim sometimes just "Hey put channel XX in the TACAN" is much easier.

 

[BACONATOR]

Some E-2s have a COTS Garmin GNS-530 that adds VOR/ILS in addition to Nav-Legal GPS. But it's not installed in all aircraft.

I like the Majic Box for certain things, but trying to finger-fu it while single engine and on fire with a pitch feel problem in the sim sometimes just "Hey put channel XX in the TACAN" is much easier.

F that! How about "XX declaring an emergency, request radar vectors for the PAR"

Civilian field?

"XX declaring an emergency, request radar vectors to final for the ILS XX"

 

[MasterBates]

You have not experienced the Dudashtrophe. I forgot to add you are lost comm.

 

[BACONATOR]

You have not experienced the Dudashtrophe. I forgot to add you are lost comm.

Wow, that's a pretty shitty day.

 

[xj220]

I like the Majic Box for certain things, but trying to finger-fu it while single engine and on fire with a pitch feel problem in the sim sometimes just "Hey put channel XX in the TACAN" is much easier.

Tru. While it's great to use, I hate having to flip through pages and go heads down for a period of time to enter the correct info. Still, for standard navigation it's clutch.

 

[Pags]

As the TACANs start to become less reliable and/or some of the routes only have VOR/DMEs, moving on an IFR flight plan from one area to the other gets harder and harder, and hopefully the place you're going has a TACAN once you get there in case the weather is crap.

It's been ages since I filed IFR for something other than a local IFR Prof, but I can see how if you don't have a legal GPS then not having a VOR is crap.

On another note, aren't they going to eventually get rid of all the VORs and just switch to GPS? In that case, there will come a point when we're all going to have to be able to fly GPS direct.

As to the orignial situation with the Apache and other USA "choppers", I guess it's just a choice the Army made to keep em cheaper/lighter/something else. If you're always planning on operating them out of FARPs, FOBs, and other relatively unprepared areas, then why bother installing a VOR if those places aren't going to have them? Sure, you'll be a bit hamstrung on x-countries, but does it matter when the end goal doesn't have a NAVAID?

Now, do I agree with that? No. It seems stupid/unsafe to not have the ability to go in the goo and safely get out of it. It's not like most of us plan for IIMC, but it still happens. Having a non-IMC a/c just seems like a poor investment, but I gues your mindset is different when your SVFR mins go down to something like 300/.5.

 

[Lawman]

My class is the last one that will go through the Armys IERW instrument course without ever learning GPS. Apparently the big problem was who was gonna pay for it vs why bother now. I guess till the next fiscal year the money to buy and maintain the database for non-corruptable GPS wasnt in the contract budget.

The reason they keep telling us its ok..... Dont worry you'll take care of that when you get to your advanced airframe

I learned in the first 3 days I was in the military never trust that passing the buck phrase.