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NEWS This is US Navy... We Fly?

haimehhh

Well-Known Member
So is it atypical to have the Chinese bristle like they did? Or is it more atypical to have a front page Yahoo news article about it (not that Yahoo is some stalwart benchmark of the news community)?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It has received a bit more media attention recently because of the island building/land reclamation that China is currently doing, but they frequently fret/complain on the radio/intercept our aircraft that operate in that part of the world. It's all a big game that many countries engage in.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It has received a bit more media attention recently because of the island building/land reclamation that China is currently doing, but they frequently fret/complain on the radio/intercept our aircraft that operate in that part of the world. It's all a big game that many countries engage in.
Like when the Iranian IADS decides to hassle someone on guard . . . right in the middle of a recovery. Shut up! I'm busy! :confused:
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A lot of what's going on in the South China Sea is related to "freedom of navigation". There's an international maritime legal principle that you can claim a sea area outside territorial waters if you can establish that, essentially, everyone's always asked your permission to transit there. It's what Libya tried to pull with the Gulf of Sidra in the 80s, and it's why China's announced an ADIZ now. So other countries will conduct exercises specifically to show they don't recognize their authority over that area.

It's the maritime law version of "I do what I want, you ain't the boss of me".
 

Hopeful Hoya

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Based off of the fact that the Navy has complained in recent weeks about "aggressive" intercepts of P-8s by PLA fighters and Past History, it seems like there's definitely a chance that things escalate.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A lot of what's going on in the South China Sea is related to "freedom of navigation". There's an international maritime legal principle that you can claim a sea area outside territorial waters if you can establish that, essentially, everyone's always asked your permission to transit there. It's what Libya tried to pull with the Gulf of Sidra in the 80s, and it's why China's announced an ADIZ now. So other countries will conduct exercises specifically to show they don't recognize their authority over that area.

Yes and no, while that may be part of an argument the fact remains that you have to have territory on which to base the claim. International law still says 12NM is the territorial limit but things have gotten more complicated with the introduction of Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZ's) in 1982. While an EEZ only gives you exclusive economic/mineral/resource rights in that zone (out to 200NM as a baseline, up to 350NM based on a continental shelf) some countries like China take it further and say that they can restrict any activity that can have an economic impact in an EEZ, including many military activities.

The South China Sea is particularly messy because an internationally recognized claim can be used as the basis for an EEZ and the SCS is filled with specks of land/reefs/shoals etc. Unfortunately for China and several of the other claimants the vast majority of their outposts do not meet the legal definition of an island (yes, there actually is a definition of an island in international law) and you can't base an EEZ off of them. Oh, and if you create an artificial island off of what was previously not a legally recognized island it is not going to be legally recognized as one in international law. Throw in the colonial history of the area along with World War II and it's aftermath and it gets even messier.

By exercising de facto control of the area China and other claimants are trying to establish some sort of basis which to make their control de jure. They are almost certainly going to be on the losing end to establish the international legality of most of their outposts but as Fester points out by exercising our right to navigate freely in the area we are undercutting their de facto control and their de jure claim.

Fester said it well enough already:

It's the maritime law version of "I do what I want, you ain't the boss of me".
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
We've done/do our share of Right of Transit Passage shenanigans. Flying in the Aegean Sea through these tiny (< 1nm) passages we crossed the extended centerline of an active runway in the goo.
How did I know? I looked out the port side and saw the approach end lights and the Greek dude screaming over the radio was a subtle clue too.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I doubt it will escalate just in and of itself. China is staking a claim, and there's a kinda-sorta legal basis for that - see the building up of the little land specks. As Flash said, it's a dubious argument but a lot of these international law things are. You shore up (see what I did there?) that claim by making an effective control argument - i.e., it's commonly recognized you exercise sovereignty over that area. By, for example, everyone asks your permission to sail or fly through an area. So you tell everyone they have to ask your permission. They refuse to ask your permission just to show your claim isn't recognized, you protest to show that you're still standing on the principle, everyone keeps on keeping' on. Nobody has any interest in picking a fight over this.

China probably hopes that eventually everyone will find better things to do with their boats and planes for long enough for a claim to not be laughably absurd. They do tend to play the long game.

Could it escalate? Maybe. If planes or boats bump and for whatever reason, no one's in a mood to de-escalate. You can't discount domestic opinion. There's still a lot of historical bad blood between China and Japan, and Vietnam and China. So if, say, a PLAN ship bumped and sank or killed civilian Japanese sailors, even accidentally, the Japanese would demand an apology and reparations and the Chinese politically can't be seen apologizing to the Japanese.
 

statesman

Shut up woman... get on my horse.
pilot
Based off of the fact that the Navy has complained in recent weeks about "aggressive" intercepts of P-8s by PLA fighters and Past History, it seems like there's definitely a chance that things escalate.

Do you know how expensive it would be to 'escalate' things with China? You like your iPhone, iPod, MacBook, tablet, or anything else you currently own?

We won't escalate shit with China anytime soon.
 
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