m0tbaillie
Former SWO
Incirlik is more of a vacation than a deployment. That base has all of the feel-good comforts of home that one could want.
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The Steve Wilkins Memorial Surface Warfare Officer (SWO) Thread
- Thread starter Steve Wilkins
- Start date
Incirlik is more of a vacation than a deployment. That base has all of the feel-good comforts of home that one could want.
I worked my ass off but had a fair amount of time to hang out in town. Because of the lack of close mess facilities our grill got a hell of a workout.
Dude, as a fellow 'nole, I feel that it's incumbent on me to try to talk you out of this:icon_tong
From what I've heard (only a few cases) it's not that the pilots GET to sleep, it's when a HSL JO draws his curtain to tell his SWO roommate getting ready to take a bridge watch to pipe down while getting dressed b/c he needs his "crew rest."
If those were the only facts, I'd probably want to punch him too.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I had a ENS SWO roommate, who decided to have division meetings in my stateroom.
Not just a couple dudes talking, but a SWO, CPO and 1-3 PO1s.
I talked to them a couple times about this.. We were flying 12 hours a night, landing at 0530, grabbing breakfast/shower and racking out. And they would do this at 0715ish, just as I was falling asleep.
After a week of this my OIC gave me the blessing to "do what's needed".. I kept a couple pairs of boots in the rack, and opened the curtain and chucked them at the jackass SWO.. (I HAD warned him).
Size 17 boot meets ass. SWO turns around.. 2nd boot meets balls.
ENS was pissed.. Our roommate (who was also trying to sleep, but was a SWO Nuke) applauded from the top rack.
His DH (LT who was not a fan of me) wanted to "Talk" to me about it.. My OIC told him to f-off.
Never had a problem the rest of the cruise.
Not just a couple dudes talking, but a SWO, CPO and 1-3 PO1s.
I talked to them a couple times about this.. We were flying 12 hours a night, landing at 0530, grabbing breakfast/shower and racking out. And they would do this at 0715ish, just as I was falling asleep.
After a week of this my OIC gave me the blessing to "do what's needed".. I kept a couple pairs of boots in the rack, and opened the curtain and chucked them at the jackass SWO.. (I HAD warned him).
Size 17 boot meets ass. SWO turns around.. 2nd boot meets balls.
ENS was pissed.. Our roommate (who was also trying to sleep, but was a SWO Nuke) applauded from the top rack.
His DH (LT who was not a fan of me) wanted to "Talk" to me about it.. My OIC told him to f-off.
Never had a problem the rest of the cruise.
What if the problem is the CO/XO? And even worse, what if they're under pressure from above (Commodore) and that's where the ridiculous requirements are being driven from.
And what if the requirements which make no sense come from SURFLANT?
ASW certification requirements just changed to something pretty much impossible to accomplish without increasing ship underway time, and increasing P-3/HSL squadron flight hours. Of course, now this year they're talking about cutting back on both due to burning through operational funding so quickly.
What if rating mergers and reduced training is the obstacle? The TM/GM, CT/EW, SM/QM mergers have all negatively impacted the proficiency of those ratings.
Better management practices shipboard will improve community morale, which in turn would probably improve baseline productivity, but it won't make a miracle to overall readiness.
These are of course the opinions of a mere JO who probably doesn't know even half the story.
m0tbaillie
Former SWO
I haven't posted too much lately because I've actually been busy with school for once, but I've have a few thoughts after having read this thread.
Most of the regulars on this site know that I'm in the SWO/IP BDCP program (this statement is really for those who don't).
Most people I have talked to about going SWO (with the IP option) have immediately started with a long-winded tirade about how terrible and shitty and grueling and demanding SWO-life is and how they eat their young and whatnot. I'm not denying that it's a rough community, and I realize that the Brown/Black shoe bashing will probably always exist, but the OP is right..
Change starts with small baby-steps. You guys sitting here bashing the community and telling prospectuses how much it sucks and how they're all self-loathing hateful bastard and whatnot isn't going to inflict change. It simply is not. You're allowing people who aren't even commissioned yet to automatically have a negative representation of a community that, while some of you may have worked around, most of you have never actually been a part of and it really isn't fair.
I haven't said much because I brush off a lot of the SWO-bashing on this site and I'm used to it. However, there are a lot of people lurking that I'm sure are taking a lot of this to heart. Nobody is denying that the community may have its faults and that it is tough, but to present only the negative aspects of the community and to knock it into glue simply isn't fair to anybody who may have actually had their heart set on that community.
Nothing will ever change if people do nothing but promulgate the same negative attitude and the same negative stereotypes about the community.
Most of the regulars on this site know that I'm in the SWO/IP BDCP program (this statement is really for those who don't).
Most people I have talked to about going SWO (with the IP option) have immediately started with a long-winded tirade about how terrible and shitty and grueling and demanding SWO-life is and how they eat their young and whatnot. I'm not denying that it's a rough community, and I realize that the Brown/Black shoe bashing will probably always exist, but the OP is right..
Change starts with small baby-steps. You guys sitting here bashing the community and telling prospectuses how much it sucks and how they're all self-loathing hateful bastard and whatnot isn't going to inflict change. It simply is not. You're allowing people who aren't even commissioned yet to automatically have a negative representation of a community that, while some of you may have worked around, most of you have never actually been a part of and it really isn't fair.
I haven't said much because I brush off a lot of the SWO-bashing on this site and I'm used to it. However, there are a lot of people lurking that I'm sure are taking a lot of this to heart. Nobody is denying that the community may have its faults and that it is tough, but to present only the negative aspects of the community and to knock it into glue simply isn't fair to anybody who may have actually had their heart set on that community.
Nothing will ever change if people do nothing but promulgate the same negative attitude and the same negative stereotypes about the community.
Perhaps, but you're pretty perceptive to the realities of the world. It's a problem. It needs to be fixed, but don't hold your breath. Just know that similar issues occur outside of SWO-dom (like aviation), it's just that our quality of life is better so we're not so bitter (in general).
m0tbaillie
Former SWO
Eh, Adana is a pretty lackluster town - I meant that Incirlik itself was more cushy.
Well, big difference, they were working for CO/XO who were both aviators.
This is one of those instances where someone who has never been on a deployment shouldn't say anything about how easy they are. Incirlik is certainly not the boat but the enlisted maintenance troops like FMRAM worked their asses off to make sure the we had working Prowlers to fly over Iraq. And it sure as hell ain't home, at least for the vast majority of us.
Change won't really come to the SWO community until it accepts a couple of different things:
One, it's counter-productive and dangerous to deprive your officers of sleep. Just having your crew well-rested makes an amazing difference in performance and morale; and as the Air side knows, performance when even somewhat sleep-deprived (let alone, a couple days without it) is equivalent to performance when drunk.
Two, it's the responsibility of the leadership (DH, XO, Captain) to make sure that the crew has ample time to sleep and relax. You'd be amazed how obvious that seems, and yet many SWO leaders would roll their eyes and make jerk-off motions if someone told them that. If leadership accepted that crew rest / crew day isn't a "not to interfere with work" thing, but an absolute, the benefits would roll downhill. Stupid little tasking starts sliding, and then everyone starts realizing how unimportant that stupid little tasking was.
Third, peer pressure should be reoriented toward healthy directions. I once got "taken aside" by a fellow Divvo (...yeah) because my knocking off at 1600 every day was making everyone look bad. I should be sticking around until 1800 or until the XO leaves, like them. That sort of idiocy rolls downhill and contributes to the venomous hate of the community.
One, it's counter-productive and dangerous to deprive your officers of sleep. Just having your crew well-rested makes an amazing difference in performance and morale; and as the Air side knows, performance when even somewhat sleep-deprived (let alone, a couple days without it) is equivalent to performance when drunk.
Two, it's the responsibility of the leadership (DH, XO, Captain) to make sure that the crew has ample time to sleep and relax. You'd be amazed how obvious that seems, and yet many SWO leaders would roll their eyes and make jerk-off motions if someone told them that. If leadership accepted that crew rest / crew day isn't a "not to interfere with work" thing, but an absolute, the benefits would roll downhill. Stupid little tasking starts sliding, and then everyone starts realizing how unimportant that stupid little tasking was.
Third, peer pressure should be reoriented toward healthy directions. I once got "taken aside" by a fellow Divvo (...yeah) because my knocking off at 1600 every day was making everyone look bad. I should be sticking around until 1800 or until the XO leaves, like them. That sort of idiocy rolls downhill and contributes to the venomous hate of the community.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
Maybe I'm getting too cynical too soon, but it seems like the only change that can occur comes from those with stars on their collars, and by then they're so instilled with "I walked to school 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways" syndrome that it doesn't matter.
As someone pointed out before -- a DH, XO, or CAPT typically doesn't give a rats ass if an ENS or JG thinks the crew would benefit from more sleep. As one LT put it to me: "The only thing an ENS/JG is to a CO is a 'relieved for cause' waiting to happen."
As someone pointed out before -- a DH, XO, or CAPT typically doesn't give a rats ass if an ENS or JG thinks the crew would benefit from more sleep. As one LT put it to me: "The only thing an ENS/JG is to a CO is a 'relieved for cause' waiting to happen."
Rep points for this bud... spot on... I agree with you whole heartily.. This is half my driving force to be a SWO.. I was enlisted for 6 years and spent 4 1/2 of those on a ship (1/2 for Boot/A-School and my last year I was hand picked to be an instructor at STG A School)
I believe there is bullshit/drama/mayhem in every community.. We work for the government!!! It is a given!! It was like that in the military, it is like that in my federal civilian job!
SWO might have it worse then others.. But speaking from first hand experience, my dual warfare quals and the salt on my shoulders I can tell you this.. The Fleet needs more like minded people like me and you.. Just simply by that sentence I quoted that told me enough I needed to know...
If you can go into the fleet with the attitude of wanting to make a positive change and you are willing to TACTFULLY (Note that word) voice your opinion and do what is in your power to find that impossible sweet spot of pleasing your sailors and accomplishing the mission then you already won half the battle.
Every command is different... speaking from an enlisted point of view obviously I cannot comment on the back door politics that go on in the wardroom as they are nothing I know about yet... I can tell you this... I am a VERY excellent judge of character in a person.. I've had good leadership (CO/XO/DH) and I've had horrible leadership (CO/XO/DH). One thing that I have always noticed... A good leader is a good people person.. I still remember my first ship USS Belleau Wood while in port our CO would randomly give us days off just because he felt we were working hard... That may not seem like much in the grand scheme of things.. But he got a return on this ten fold.. When it was go time for deployment, workups, Ops.. We handed our business like none other..
Food for thought.. that CAPT went on to become a 2 Star last time I checked
Just kinda going off on a rant here so please excuse me guys.. Just basically getting at I've noticed alot of flack come towards the SWO community lately.. for obvious reasons of course reading the paper.. But there are people out there willing to make a change or willing to set the example.. You learn from good leadership and you learn from bad leadership.. It is how you display these traits as to what results you will yield. Personally if it is as cutthroat as it seems to be..I like a challenge
That's all well and good, but what if your judge of character tells you your boss (CO/XO/DH) is the opposite of those good things? You can do all the things you mentioned, as well as find ways to "resist" their "leadership techniques" (and by resist, I mean SERE resist. Those that know what I mean, know what I mean), but if at the end of the day your CO/XO/DH doesn't take inputs from his O's, dictates edicts rather than makes decisions based on reason, and/or is generally a pain in the ass, your life still sucks.
Are all ships like this? No, of course not, but there are plenty that are and it sucks for everyone. Yes, even the aviators.