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The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?


  • Total voters
    221

cosmania

Gitty Up!
pilot
Canada has excellent healthcare? Then why do they have to wait 6 months for an MRI and 6 month to have it read? Why is there a shortage of neurologists that can't be remedied until the government decides to hire more? Why are they sending people across the border for treatments? I wouldn't call it "excellent."
 

jt71582

How do you fly a Clipper?
pilot
Contributor
I didn't get to read the entire thread, but I wanted to throw in my $0.02. My girlfriend is in med school on Norfolk (evms). I used to be for socialized healthcare, until she brought up some very interesting points (which I know have mostly been covered by now).

Eliminating competition between doctors would mean eliminating incentive for the best doctors to come to the US. Most of the problem lies with the litigious tendencies of the American public. Something needs to be done about malpractice suits popping up everywhere. Healthcare would not be as expensive if doctors didn't have to spend a major portion of their income on malpractice insurance.

After considering all of the pros and cons, I cannot really find a single reason to socialize healthcare. I think this movement only highlights a growing "victim" disposition that a lot of Americans are taking. They want immediate satisfaction and they don't want to pay for it.

My humble opinion, as always.
 

Achilles

That dog won't hunt, Monsignor!
pilot
Canada has excellent healthcare? Then why do they have to wait 6 months for an MRI and 6 month to have it read? Why is there a shortage of neurologists that can't be remedied until the government decides to hire more? Why are they sending people across the border for treatments? I wouldn't call it "excellent."

+1, To add, good luck seeing any kind of specialist or getting any kind of surgery. There is a reason cancer survival rates are higher in the US.
 

dephyler

Member
Contributor
To throw in my $0.02 and personal experience...

In Australia, they have socialized health care. Everybody is covered no matter what, for anything. There's a small cost for things like surgeries and what not, but for the most part it's free and guaranteed. But everyone I knew had private insurance in addition to the public insurance. That was because it was nearly impossible to get major treatments in a timely fashion.

WTH is the point of public HC if you're going to pay for private insurance for better coverage any way?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
+1, To add, good luck seeing any kind of specialist or getting any kind of surgery. There is a reason cancer survival rates are higher in the US.
Cuz this never happens in the U.S....

My mother got bitten by a tic and came down with lime disease. The only thing is that her physician didn't catch it until it was way advanced. She had to see a specialist for the diagnosis at this point, since she needed some crazy ass antibiotic to cure it, and the only one in the area charged $1,500 a visit and did not accept ANY insurance. She ultimately found one, but she had to travel a long ways to see him.
 

Scoob

If you gotta problem, yo, I'll be part of it.
pilot
Contributor
Universal Health Care treats the symptom, not the disease.

14 million people are without health insurance because they can't afford it. Health insurance is expensive because health care is more expensive for those that are insured. Health care is more expensive for those that are insured to make up for the mandated health care provided at emergency rooms to those that are not insured - and to those on government health care plans that set fixed prices for services, like TriCare. Health care is also expensive so doctors can afford malpractice insurance. Malpractice insurance is expensive because of the sheer volume of malpractice cases filed in this country (not to mention the occasional multi-million dollar punitive award). The volume of malpractice cases is due SOLELY to the cancer of the sense of entitlement that pervades this country.

During the depression, the US Govt didn't go around handing people money to feed themselves and say "It's OK, we'll get through this. Here's some money, now just stay at home and things will get better. We promise." Not hardly. Instead, they created programs like the WPA which built bridges, dams and highways in order to create jobs so that people could work, make money, not starve, and most importantly, NOT GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. Somewhere along the way, this idea has become lost to most government programs and we've conditioned the less fortunate to expect to get payed to do nothing.

Let's take Afghanistan, for example. In 2001, when an errant bomb killed a civilian, the Aghan culture (who was very conditioned to hardship) relied on the Muslim concept of Inshala to explain it and deal with it. Sometimes it's Allah's will that bad things happen to you, or put another way, life's a bitch, don't try to understand it, you'll just go crazy. To win hearts and minds, we began employing the practice of distributing solatia payments when innocent lives were lost or property damaged. Initially, this was meant just as a symbolic gesture to show that we acknowledge the loss, and did not mean it - another concept that goes far in the Afghan culture. Now, after 7 years, we are teaching the Afghan people the concept of entitlement. Whenever property is damaged in a village, surrounding property owners will damage their own property because they know the payouts are coming and want in on it. Village elders will use aid projects as leverage against rivals and fights will break out during feel good "licky and chewy" handouts.

You wanna fix health care, giving it away is not the answer. Make it affoardable, but keep it something you must earn.
 

Scoob

If you gotta problem, yo, I'll be part of it.
pilot
Contributor
Cuz this never happens in the U.S....

My mother got bitten by a tic and came down with lime disease. The only thing is that her physician didn't catch it until it was way advanced. She had to see a specialist for the diagnosis at this point, since she needed some crazy ass antibiotic to cure it, and the only one in the area charged $1,500 a visit and did not accept ANY insurance. She ultimately found one, but she had to travel a long ways to see him.
You're not seriously making this argument without any thought to the DEMAND for treatment of lyme disease vs. the demand for cancer treatment - and thus SUPPLY for specialists in each field - are you?????????????????

b/c that would just be dumb.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Protecting and Defending the constitution shouldn't mean just focusing abroad, it should also be focusing within our borders to help our fellow citizens.

Before you start protecting and defending the Constitution, you might try reading it. Please let me know when you get to the part about "helping our fellow citizens" with their healthcare.

I must have missed that part.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
If there were no demand for that specialist, he wouldn't be able to get away with charging $1,500 a visit and not accepting any kind of insurance. Hell, he wouldn't even be in business.

It's moreso that the supply (ie that kind of specialist) is limited. I wish I could remember what specialist he was. I think it was neurology or infectious disease, but I'm not certain. What I do know is that he doesn't just treat lyme disease. But unlike Canada, instead of just waiting a long time to see him, you wait a long time and go broke at the same time.
 

Scoob

If you gotta problem, yo, I'll be part of it.
pilot
Contributor
If there were no demand for that specialist, he wouldn't be able to get away with charging $1,500 a visit and not accepting any kind of insurance. Hell, he wouldn't even be in business.

It's moreso that the supply (ie that kind of specialist) is limited. I wish I could remember what specialist he was. I think it was neurology or infectious disease, but I'm not certain. What I do know is that he doesn't just treat lyme disease. But unlike Canada, instead of just waiting a long time to see him, you wait a long time and go broke at the same time.
If there was REALLY a demand, there would be more specialists and competitive pricing to draw business. Also, if there were REALLY a demand, a single specialist would not have to diversify and would specialize in only the treatment of Lyme Disease.

Not much of a problem with either of those in the case of cancer. Only, when you take away the monetary incentives for an MD to specialize in oncology you get less of them - and the accompanying 6 month waiting list.
 

QuagmireMcGuire

Kinder and Gentler
popcorn.gif
 

Achilles

That dog won't hunt, Monsignor!
pilot
If there was REALLY a demand, there would be more specialists and competitive pricing to draw business. Also, if there were REALLY a demand, a single specialist would not have to diversify and would specialize in only the treatment of Lyme Disease.

Not much of a problem with either of those in the case of cancer. Only, when you take away the monetary incentives for an MD to specialize in oncology you get less of them - and the accompanying 6 month waiting list.

+1
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
If there was REALLY a demand, there would be more specialists and competitive pricing to draw business. Also, if there were REALLY a demand, a single specialist would not have to diversify and would specialize in only the treatment of Lyme Disease.

Not much of a problem with either of those in the case of cancer. Only, when you take away the monetary incentives for an MD to specialize in oncology you get less of them - and the accompanying 6 month waiting list.
EXCEPT...

Not all specialties require the same training. The work required through residency and fellowships generally drives doctors away from "hard" specialties like neurology. The people left going for them are the ones who either really like the subject, or really like money.

And there are many specialists who also choose to practice general medicine at the same time. What I'm getting at is that supply/patient demand doesn't play into what a doctor is going to pick for a specialty all that much.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
What I'm getting at is that supply/patient demand doesn't play into what a doctor is going to pick for a specialty all that much.

Ah yes, the one thing that makes supply and demand model for ALL cases: PREFERENCES!

Seriously, who started this shennanigans again?
 

Scoob

If you gotta problem, yo, I'll be part of it.
pilot
Contributor
What I'm getting at is that supply/patient demand doesn't play into what a doctor is going to pick for a specialty all that much.
But salary sure does, which is dictated by demand.




Just stay down.
 
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