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The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?


  • Total voters
    221

QuagmireMcGuire

Kinder and Gentler
You are not conservative any more then Hilery is "not a liberal, but a progressive."

Conserve: to use or manage wisely; preserve; save

Conservative: disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

Viewpoint: A position from which something is observed or considered; a point of view

Therefore, a conservative viewpoint is: A point of view disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

Now, go back and read again my statements, please.
 

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
Conserve: to use or manage wisely; preserve; save

Conservative: disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

Viewpoint: A position from which something is observed or considered; a point of view

Therefore, a conservative viewpoint is: A point of view disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

Now, go back and read again my statements, please.

I love the lawyerism!!!! That doesn't work that way, however: as shown below:

Blow: a sudden, hard stroke with a hand, fist, or weapon

Job: a piece of work, esp. a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price

Combination of the above 2 words is no where close to what it means.
 

QuagmireMcGuire

Kinder and Gentler
I love the lawyerism!!!! That doesn't work that way, however: as shown below:

Blow: a sudden, hard stroke with a hand, fist, or weapon

Job: a piece of work, esp. a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price

Combination of the above 2 words is no where close to what it means.

Now you are just being difficult.:D And, actually I could make an argument that the combination of those words is close to what it means.


=======

Anyway, this thread has tired me out. Thank you to all willing to share their opinions with me and I thank all those who participated in the civil exchange.

Happy Holidays. Take Care.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Blow: a sudden, hard stroke with a hand, fist, or weapon

Job: a piece of work, esp. a specific task done as part of the routine of one's occupation or for an agreed price

Combination of the above 2 words is no where close to what it means.

Sounds like a good billet description for a hooker. Or college chick.
 

navy09

Registered User
None
It has nothing to do with demand. The demand is there, but people cannot afford it. I think the downslide is going to start with insurance companies. As businesses keep cutting benefits, and people stop being able to afford it, insurance will stop being profitable. Insurance relies on pooling the money of many people together for the few who need it. When the cost of premiums approach the cost of care without getting insurance, people will stop buying it. They're going to start to go bankrupt because there's no way in hell that the execs are going to take a paycut. They'll invest in the next upcoming thing. The people who want healthcare, the same ones who can't afford it right now, won't be able to afford it when insurance goes under. And thus you have a lot of highly trained professionals with people who can't afford their product...

Your logic is flawed- you really should go pick up an intro economics book if you believe this. Be sure to read the chapter about the elasticity of demand. This industry has a fairly inelastic demand curve (obviously- people need health care). But at some point that demand curve WILL shift left, causing a leftward shift of the supply curve in response (read: lower prices). Those execs aren't stupid, they will take a paycut (or cut costs somewhere) before they let their company go out of business.
 

Steve Wilkins

Teaching pigs to dance, one pig at a time.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think your interpretation of the Constitution is laughable. Furthermore, your explanation of the purpose of the Bill of Rights only serves to make you sound ignorant. The purpose of the Bill of Rights has absolutely nothing to do with individual freedoms. The Bill of Rights was a political maneuver to ensure the Constitution would be ratified. Individual freedoms were (and are) guaranteed by the Constitution not by specifying what rights we have, but instead by giving the government very specific and limited powers. The Bill of Rights is moot, and honestly, has absolutely nothing to do with government healthcare.
After re-reading what I wrote last night, I can see how some may misinterpret what I meant. Obviously, the focus of the Bill of Rights as they are written are on freedoms. But really, what purpose do they serve? Their purpose is not to impose restrictions on an otherwise unlimited power of government. Our Constitution is different, and special in that it is very specific in what powers are delegated to the federal government and that all other powers remain with the states. The government's power to infringe on people's right to free speech is nowhere in the document. So why even have an Amendment (read: change) to the Constitution that already prohibits the infringement of free speech...albeit implicitly? And the 10th Amendment essentially repeated what was in the Constitution already. So by me saying the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with individual freedoms, I'm simply stating that they were unnecessary. All they did, and continue to do, is confuse people into thinking that we derive our individual freedoms from explicit language found in the Constitution or as a derivative from some Supreme Court decision. That is simply asinine.

So again, we're back to the question as to what they're purpose was if they weren't needed. They were needed, but not in the sense to secure individual liberties. The idea of adding a Bill of Rights was brought up in the Constitutional Convention. It received little support and the idea was subsequently squashed. When the Constitution went to the states to be ratified, opponents used the lack of a Bill of Rights to stir up controversy in hopes that it wouldn't be ratified. As a result, the idea of adding a Bill of Rights resurfaced. The Constitution was ratified by a number of states that otherwise wouldn't have, because of promises made by its supporters that a Bill of Rights would be added. Even Madison, who objected to the concept at the Constitutional Convention saw the political necessity to adding a Bill of Rights and changed his position on the matter. So, as I stated before, it was a political maneuver to ensure the ratification of the Constitution.

Steve Wilkins said:
If the rights, as outlined in the Bill of Rights, were so important, then why not make them part of the original text of the Constitution? Furthermore, for example, why is there nothing to be said of the "right" to privacy in the Constitution? Seems pretty important to me.
Again, easy to misinterpret what I meant. I'm not saying the rights themselves are not important. I'm simply saying that if it was so important as to be explicitly defined in the Constitution, the Framers would have done so initially, and not as amendments after the fact. There is nothing explicitly stated about a right to privacy because it's implicitly understood.

Spekkio said:
Steve: The Bill of Rights certainly does have meaning. The Constitution has the elastic clause, which basically has been interpreted that Congress can enact any law so long as the Constitution specifically says that it can't. The Bill of Rights is a list of 10 things that Congress cannot do.

The "Right to Privacy" doesn't exist in the Constitution. It's a loose interpretation of the 4th and 9th Amendments, the latter which basically says that the rights of the people outlined in the Constitution are not exhaustive.

Under those same lines, you could argue that healthcare is a right without specifically being stated as such. However, that's not my basis for my argument for healthcare reform.
Oh no, not the Elastic Clause. Surely, you aren't using the Elastic Clause as your argument FOR having a Bill of Rights. If so, then go back and re-read the damn clause again. The Elastic Clause specifically states that it refers to the powers that is delegated to the federal government. It's not a "free for all Congress can do whatever they want" clause.

Yes, I realize the "right to privacy" doesn't exist in the Constitution. That's why I brought it up. I wanted to show that the Bill of Rights weren't written in order to show people exactly what their rights are. As for health care being a "right"....I don't think so. And no, you couldn't show it as such under the same basis as my argument. If you want, I'll prove it to you.

Spekkio said:
...stating that it has no meaning beyond a political ploy is a far stretch. Numerous laws have been stricken down under the provisions in the Bill of Rights.
Oh brother. That's called backward logic.
 

FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
I think I should've mentioned this earlier. I live in the very liberal state of Wisconsin, where we actually have statewide health care. It's called Badgercare didn't solve a damn thing, still uninsured people wandering about. Badgercare sucks
So you are telling me that we should send all the leeches on society....and those who want UHC...to Wisconsin! Great idea!
 

Birdman

Registered User
So you are telling me that we should send all the leeches on society....and those who want UHC...to Wisconsin! Great idea!

Nah, it's too cold for homeless folks. They'll die in the first cold snap. That's why they hang out in Cali
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Steve,

Thank you for clarifying. I do agree that many of the rights mentioned in the first 10 amendments appear elsewhere in the Constitution, implicitly or explicitly. However, I think that clarifying such implicit statements has a use. I mean, let's look at one statement that, when analyzed from an English perspective, has an extremely straightforward meaning: the 2nd amendment:

2nd amendment said:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Aside from the fact that it has too many commas, and the version given to the states was gramattically correct: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," this statement is quite simple: the federal government cannot infringe upon the right of people to bear arms. Ever, because doing so would prevent the security of a free state. I don't see where this is stated elsewhere in the Constitution, but I don't have the time to go back and read it again right now.

Now, where you have a point is that this simple statement has resulted in numerous debates and political maneuvering by focusing on the modifying phrase of "a well regulated militia," when all that part of the statement does is explain why the framers wrote the amendment. People are barred from owning certain types of firearms, and felons cannot obtain them in many states. This blatantly contradicts the amendment.

Now, as for the elastic clause: there has been a lot of debate over what "necessary and proper" means. Wikipedia says it better than I can:

wikipedia said:
Like many others in the Constitution, the necessary and proper clause is open to interpretation, and reasonable minds can disagree over what laws are "necessary and proper" for Congress to exercise the express powers granted to it by the Constitution. Not surprisingly then, its interpretation has been controversial, especially during the early years of the republic, and with the powers asserted under the New Deal. Strict constructionists interpret the clause to mean that Congress may make a law only if the inability to do so would cripple its ability to apply one of its enumerated powers ("foregoing powers"). Others argue that the elastic clause expands the authority of Congress to not only "carry into execution" the enumerated powers, but to get whatever result those who apply an express power might seek in doing so. It is often known as the elastic clause because of the great amount of leeway in interpretation it seems to allow; depending on the interpretation, it can be used to "stretch" or expand the powers of Congress, or allowed to "contract," limiting the implied powers of Congress by the expansion of the implied powers of other branches. It is usually held, however, that it may not be used to deprive other governmental branches of powers expressly granted to them in the Constitution.

The bottom line is that this clause has historically been used for Congress to expand its power beyond what is explicitly stated elsewhere in the Constitution. However, even the most staunch liberal could not argue reasonably (if a liberal could argue reasonably at all) that Congress can make laws that infringe upon the Bill of Rights, because the Constitution explicitly states that they can't.

Look, I personally think that the Federal government should stay out of as many things as possible. It usually messes shit up. But I do think that a single-payer health insurance system would be best for bringing down the cost and covering more people. As I said before, the best way to go about this is for the federal government to pass a law of what the insurance company must offer in terms of coverage, and then give an independent 5-year contract to the lowest bidder. If that company fucks it up, you give the contract to someone else when the term is up.

I'm not for a single-payer UHC system because I'm liberal, communist, or anything else. I'm for it because it makes much more sense and would save people much more money than the system we have now. If anyone has a better idea to cut medical costs and provide coverage to more working people aside from "limit frivolous lawsuits" (not saying that that doesn't increase the cost, but it's only a piece of the equation), I'm all ears.

As for the economics lesson: look, there are too many inter-connected businesses here to look at a simple supply/demand curve. The current trend is that businesses are cutting healthcare benefits, which means that they're not buying them from the insurance companies. People, by and large, cannot afford coverage on their own. As this continues to occur, insurance companies will be forced to jack up their rates to keep even. You could say "well, they'll just lower their rates." Right? Well, there are these guys called doctors who are charging what they do for healthcare for various reasons. They also have to pay malpractice insurance, which keeps going up. So now you have less people buying insurance, which causes the insurance company to be stressed to meet the benefits of its customers, and you have doctors which are charging increasing costs for medicine. Oh, now we have pharmacy companies who are charging an arm and a leg for prescriptions. They're also putting commercials on TV so that you can "ask your doctor to put you on drugs." When they face some competition, Congress suddenly turns protectionist and passes a law that we can't buy foreign meds. Those insurance companies I talked about before have to cover these.

What this boils down to is that insurance companies will have to jack their rates to break even. Even as demand goes down, their price is dictated by what doctors, hospitals, and prescription companies charge for care. And as the cost of insurance approaches the cost of medicine, people are going to be much less inclined to buy into it. The thing is, insurance giants are investors and businessmen. They can do their business anywhere, and they'll do just that. They'll declare bankruptcy, cash out, and move onto the next profitable thing. The professionals - doctors and pharmacists, aren't trained elsewhere and can't cash out a billion dollars by declaring bankruptcy. They're going to be the ones stuck with no patients as people cannot afford their care. And then you're going to have a very angry populace who can't afford to go to the doctor, at which point the system will rectify itself somehow, either via a single-payer, UHC system or other means.

There is a very delicate balance going on with our current healthcare system. Business owners buy from insurance companies, whose rates are dictated by doctor, hospital, and prescription fees. Sometimes they have help from employees who have to pay into the plan. Hospital fees are dictated by the cost of paying the attending physicians, nurses, technicians, and the cost of real estate. Doctor's rates are dictated by the amount of training they go through, the high cost of supplies, and the high cost of malpractice insurance. Malpractice insurance is dictated by legal fees. Supply cost goes up as technology increases. Prescription fees are probably the most independent part of the equation here, but they're not going to cut their costs so long as they have people taking their meds.

A slide in any one of those parts of the equation can screw things up dramatically. It's not so simple as saying "oh, well people will always want healthcare, so it's never going to implode."
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
The bottom line is that this clause has historically been used for Congress to expand its power beyond what is explicitly stated elsewhere in the Constitution. However, even the most staunch liberal could not argue reasonably (if a liberal could argue reasonably at all) that Congress can make laws that infringe upon the Bill of Rights, because the Constitution explicitly states that they can't.

With activist judges, Congress has made this the norm rather than the exception. Please see "prayer in school", "assault weapons ban", "abortion on demand", and "McCain-Feingold". I'll concede that only two of these (among many others) are the direct fault of Congress, but the SC actions falls under the unbrella of the advise and consent part of the Constitution with their relation to Congress, specifically the Senate.

Look, I personally think that the Federal government should stay out of as many things as possible. It usually messes shit up.

Amen. Then why in the world would you want them involved in your healthcare?

But I do think that a single-payer health insurance system would be best for bringing down the cost and covering more people. As I said before, the best way to go about this is for the federal government to pass a law of what the insurance company must offer in terms of coverage, and then give an independent 5-year contract to the lowest bidder. If that company fucks it up, you give the contract to someone else when the term is up.

Riiiiight. The government has done such a marvelous job of managing government contractors thus far, health care should be no problem. Please see "DoD" for further details and examples of "well run" government contracts.


I'm not for a single-payer UHC system because I'm liberal, communist, or anything else. I'm for it because it makes much more sense and would save people much more money than the system we have now. If anyone has a better idea to cut medical costs and provide coverage to more working people aside from "limit frivolous lawsuits" (not saying that that doesn't increase the cost, but it's only a piece of the equation), I'm all ears.

I don't care if you're a communist/liberal/nazi/socialist/Branch Davidian/ etc. A bad idea is a bad idea. Labels beyond that serve no purpose. Use "all your ears" when people discuss the Free Market. Read your Econ 101 textbook first and the discussion will make much more sense.

As for the economics lesson: look, there are too many inter-connected businesses here to look at a simple supply/demand curve. The current trend is that businesses are cutting healthcare benefits, which means that they're not buying them from the insurance companies. People, by and large, cannot afford coverage on their own. As this continues to occur, insurance companies will be forced to jack up their rates to keep even. You could say "well, they'll just lower their rates." Right? Well, there are these guys called doctors who are charging what they do for healthcare for various reasons. They also have to pay malpractice insurance, which keeps going up. So now you have less people buying insurance, which causes the insurance company to be stressed to meet the benefits of its customers, and you have doctors which are charging increasing costs for medicine. Oh, now we have pharmacy companies who are charging an arm and a leg for prescriptions. They're also putting commercials on TV so that you can "ask your doctor to put you on drugs." When they face some competition, Congress suddenly turns protectionist and passes a law that we can't buy foreign meds. Those insurance companies I talked about before have to cover these.

What this boils down to is that insurance companies will have to jack their rates to break even. Even as demand goes down, their price is dictated by what doctors, hospitals, and prescription companies charge for care. And as the cost of insurance approaches the cost of medicine, people are going to be much less inclined to buy into it. The thing is, insurance giants are investors and businessmen. They can do their business anywhere, and they'll do just that. They'll declare bankruptcy, cash out, and move onto the next profitable thing. The professionals - doctors and pharmacists, aren't trained elsewhere and can't cash out a billion dollars by declaring bankruptcy. They're going to be the ones stuck with no patients as people cannot afford their care. And then you're going to have a very angry populace who can't afford to go to the doctor, at which point the system will rectify itself somehow, either via a single-payer, UHC system or other means.

Doctors, while they may be specially talented people or great guys in general (or not, it's really irrelevant) are just as much compelled by the laws of economics as everybody else on the planet. Re-read that part about "Free markets" in your Econ 101 textbook.

There is a very delicate balance going on with our current healthcare system, and a slide in any part of the equation can make the whole thing blow up.

No shit. That's why a big, irrational, and unconstitutional move like UHC is a really bad idea.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Don't have time to answer the rest, but:

With activist judges
I really dislike this term, as it's usually an empty political buzz phrase that conservative-minded people use when the Supreme Court makes a decision they dislike.

Congress has made this the norm rather than the exception. Please see "prayer in school"
Prayer in school is actually a conflict between two things in the Constitution: separation of church and state, and the 1st amendment. It's not too long ago that children were forced to recite Christian prayers in school. Many people in middle America say "what's the problem," but I happen to live in an area of the country where the Jewish populace is very transparent. I would have no problem if my classmates wanted to say a prayer in the morning when I was in school. I would, however, be very upset if I were forced to partake in the act.

"assault weapons ban"
Fully agree there. The basis for this decision, as I said before, seems to be the way judges interpret that whole militia dependent clause. I have read multiple language interpretations of the 2nd amendment, and they all say that it's pretty damn clear. Translated into modern English, it would say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed because a well-regulated militia is necessary to maintain the security of a free-state." It doesn't matter if they said "because guns can put cows on the moon," it doesn't change the fact that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

"abortion on demand"
I agree that the Constitutional case for abortion is shaky at best.

"McCain-Feingold"
Unfamiliar with this court decision.
 
Well it wasn't the way that I would have worded it; yet, because it was specificaly offered to me I will accept the duty of shiving all participents in the passage of UHC.;):D
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
I really dislike this term, as it's usually an empty political buzz phrase that conservative-minded people use when the Supreme Court makes a decision they dislike.

"Activist Judges" is a term for judges that legislate from the bench. Instead of reading the Constitution (or the law, depending on the level of judge), they just rule based on what they think is "fair" or "right". For instance, when the Mass. SC told the Mass. congress to pass a law regarding same sex marriage (sorry, I forgot the details and am too lazy to look them up tonight). That's judicial activism. They are getting out of their lanes (judiciary interprets the law.....Legislative writes the law).

Prayer in school is actually a conflict between two things in the Constitution: separation of church and state, and the 1st amendment.

I'm sorry. I've only read the Constitution a couple of hundred times. Could you please point out that section or clause? I don't see it. Were you perhaps thinking of the Federalist papers?


Unfamiliar with this court decision.

McCain-Feingold isn't really a court decision (it has been contested there though). I was referring to Campaign Finance Reform, where the government is telling citizens how much they can spend on supporting any particular candidate. A clear conflict with the 1st Amendment.
 
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