The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[QuagmireMcGuire]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071220/ap_on_he_me/cancer_uninsured

An interesting read.

 

[MasterBates]

Again, why should I have to pay for those that CHOOSE to not have health coverage until the govt forces me to pay for them to get it.

I have health coverage. It's part of my benefits. Any tax increase, no matter how you disguise it for UHC is me paying more money for no more services.

You want good health care?

GET A FVCKING JOB!! ONE WITH BENEFITS! THEY EXIST!!

This will be a hideously expensive thing that will just create another inefficient govt bureaucracy.

 

[Spekkio]

There were some pretty affordable ($32-$204) health insurance plans when I plugged in my variables, on www.ehealthinsurance.com ...

Interesting. Just to appease you, I went to the site myself. I do not smoke, and I am not a college student:

I'm curious how you got yours down to 10% of what it'd cost me to get health insurance with a $2800 deductable.

 

[Hozer]

Edward Hicks was uninsured, and a patchwork health care system delayed him from getting chemotherapy that some argue might have extended his life.

That article is fraught with emotional pleas with very little case specifics, just a lot of might have/maybes and would/coulds.
Shocker, uninsured folks live shorter lives when confronted with illness.

But, what OTHER factors contributed to their conditions? The article does not say.

"The truth is that our national reluctance to face these facts is condemning thousands of people to die from cancer each year," Dr. Elmer Huerta wrote

So, who is Dr. Elmer Huerta then?

Dr. Huerta has repeatedly testified before the U.S. Congress on minority health issues and was appointed by President Clinton as member of the National Cancer Advisory Board in 1998. He is a member of the Board of Directors of the Prevent Cancer Foundation, and a founding member of the American Legacy Foundation and the Intercultural Cancer Council.

http://www.c-changetogether.org/about_ndc/newsroom/reports/CPNPaper.pdf

Here, Dr. Huerta advocates nationalized universal health care.

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

Again, why should I have to pay for those that CHOOSE to not have health coverage until the govt forces me to pay for them to get it.

I have health coverage. It's part of my benefits. Any tax increase, no matter how you disguise it for UHC is me paying more money for no more services.

You want good health care?

GET A FVCKING JOB!! ONE WITH BENEFITS! THEY EXIST!!

This will be a hideously expensive thing that will just create another inefficient govt bureaucracy.

Because saying that a person has a "choice" is not as simple as it may seem. I can choose to obey the law or not; my choice may adversely impact all those directly in my path or indirectly on the perimeter.

Example:

27 year old single mother of two children. The oldest child is 4 and the youngest child is 2. Mother has two full-time jobs; one in a factory and another as a temp. She has a high school diploma and wants to enter an assistant nursing program. This mother is responsible for paying her rent, paying for child-care, and paying for her utility bills and transporation costs. She becomes sick and loses a few days of pay; she is thrown behind in everything. She must choose between paying her rent, paying child-care, and paying for a doctor's visit. Those are her choices. Nine times out of ten, the mother chooses to pay her rent and pay that child-care because her family needs shelter and she needs her children to be taken care of while she is working those jobs. If by not enrolling in health insurance saves her $200 a month then she's not going to do it.

I bet you'll say: "Tough luck, sweetheart, you could have chosen to get that insurance." But, you fail to recognize the other factors which play into her decision. Everyone believes they are robust until they are fallen by a disease. If she believes she takes care of herself then she'll be fine but the moment something unexpected happens, she's thrown off course. What really is shameful is that we live in a society in which peope have to CHOOSE between paying their rent, paying for child-care, and paying for health-care. The burden has to be lightened for those hard-working individuals who are struggling to keep one step ahead.

Why isn't the father not contributing? Because he has chosen not to do so. Why doesn't she get public assistance? Because our society has deemed these individuals as lazy, valueless individuals who are dead weight.

We are going to continue to go around and around on this subject because we have different philosphies and different ideals.

 

[Hozer]

We are going to continue to go around and around on this subject because we have different philosphies and different ideals.

27 year old single mother of two children. The oldest child is 4 and the youngest child is 2. Mother has two full-time jobs; one in a factory and another as a temp. She has a high school diploma and wants to enter an assistant nursing program.

I bet you'll say: "Tough luck, sweetheart, you could have chosen to get that insurance."

So, is it safe to say you'd want all of us to pay for the mom and her two kids care then?

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

So, is it safe to say you'd want all of us to pay for the mom and her two kids care then?

In a manner of speaking, yes. Create more vouchers or make all Pre-K schooling free which may significantly impact the cost of child-care. Amongst my relatives and friends, I would say their average child-care costs per week is $250; it'll vary depending on the shift you work and the number of children you have. Or, create a health care system which will cover the mother and her children; there are some UHC programs that call for covering all children under the age of 18.

Additionally, there are societal values which need to be addressed.

 

[MasterBates]

OH MY GOD!!!

STOP THE PRESSES!!!

Can't afford to support your kids? CLOSE YOUR FVCKING LEGS LADY!

Again, she made a bad choice (sperm donation from a deadbeat) TWICE.

She is now paying for her bad decision.

I made a bad decision. I pay for it. It's part of dealing with the consequences of you actions.

This is the problem with Liberals. They think they know best how to spend YOUR money to "make it better".

Its my money. You want more? Go earn it.

Medicaid/Medicare & Disabliity/SSA/SSI are more than enough of a safety net. And they are abused. Badly.

 

[MasterBates]

For example:

32 year old white female. Divorced, no kids.
Disabled due to "emotional trauma"
Gets $800/mo PLUS Medicare A/B&D

She can live on that, or choose to go get a job and keep all the above for 9 months while working full time, or part time indefinitely.. Cash, insurance, everything. She CHOOSES to not work and live off of that.

We are paying for HER bad choices. And UHC will make that a heckuva lot more common.

 

[Herc_Dude]

This is a damn good thread.

I just don't understand why people don't want to hold others accountable for their actions - unless they are military and male.

 

[Fly Navy]

I bet you'll say: "Tough luck, sweetheart, you could have chosen to get that insurance." But, you fail to recognize the other factors which play into her decision. Everyone believes they are robust until they are fallen by a disease. If she believes she takes care of herself then she'll be fine but the moment something unexpected happens, she's thrown off course. What really is shameful is that we live in a society in which peope have to CHOOSE between paying their rent, paying for child-care, and paying for health-care. The burden has to be lightened for those hard-working individuals who are struggling to keep one step ahead.

So, if we were to label her a legitimate case in need of help, how do you propose you stop those who desire nothing more than to live off the system and suck the government, and therefore us, dry? All one has to do is look at the welfare state of Louisiana, DC, etc. You can NOT allow those people to live off the system, they are a terrible drain on society and they ARE lazy and disgusting. See the problem inherent in the system?

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

So, if we were to label her a legitimate case in need of help, how do you propose you stop those who desire nothing more than to live off the system and suck the government, and therefore us, dry? All one has to do is look at the welfare state of Louisiana, DC, etc. You can NOT allow those people to live off the system, they are a terrible drain on society and they ARE lazy and disgusting. See the problem inherent in the system?

Unfortunately, we are already paying for those people who are abusing the system; we are already paying for those lazy people exploiting the system. Whether or not there is a UHC, these people are going to be covered. They've mastered the game. Because of these individuals, those legitimate cases are dismissed as being in the same category.

Our society has always existed as a multi-tiered and flawed society; as previously stated, there are huge overhauls that need to take place in this society. Why are there so many people defaulting on student loans? Why are people defaulting on mortgages? I don't know the answers but the current pattern alarms me.

I don't understand how people perceive Health Care as being a reward. Conversely, I don't understand why there is a feeling that it is an appropriate punishment for those people who aren't experienced enough or lucky enough to have better paying jobs.

Master, I don't believe I said she couldn't afford her kids. I do believe I said that her choices are limited because of her family. More venom was expressed upon her for doing the right thing then it was upon the male for not doing the right thing. She works multiple jobs so as not to be on the system yet you are saying it is her own damn fault for not being on the system? Let's get to the chase, do you think only financially stable people should have children? (I wonder how many of us would not have been born under those circumstances?)

 

[MasterBates]

Unfortunately, we are already paying for those people who are abusing the system; we are already paying for those lazy people exploiting the system. Whether or not there is a UHC, these people are going to be covered. They've mastered the game. Because of these individuals, those legitimate cases are dismissed as being in the same category.

Why should we allow MORE people to exploit the system? It will cost more money in taxes. Period. Because those of us that are now only paying for ourselves, will be paying for a portion of the "poor unfortunates" as well. Fvckem.

Our society has always existed as a multi-tiered and flawed society; as previously stated, there are huge overhauls that need to take place in this society. Why are there so many people defaulting on student loans? Why are people defaulting on mortgages? I don't know the answers but the current pattern alarms me.

So you are saying all people should live in a classless society? Move to a Communistic county. I like having the chance to better myself and my family. America is the land of OPPORTUNITY, not "government assure mediocrity". People default on student loans because they take out $100K and blow it in a bullshit major that they can't pay the $1K/mo repayment. I had $106K, and I pay them ALL back. I had a useful major.. That whole personal responsibility thing again.

I don't understand how people perceive Health Care as being a reward. Conversely, I don't understand why there is a feeling that it is an appropriate punishment for those people who aren't experienced enough or lucky enough to have better paying jobs.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it. Are housing and food a reward? No. They are necessities, which people pay for. Just some slackers think we should pay for theirs. You want health care beyond your immune system, take care of your body and invest in the insurance.

Master, I don't believe I said she couldn't afford her kids. I do believe I said that her choices are limited because of her family. More venom was expressed upon her for doing the right thing then it was upon the male for not doing the right thing. She works multiple jobs so as not to be on the system yet you are saying it is her own damn fault for not being on the system? Let's get to the chase, do you think only financially stable people should have children? (I wonder how many of us would not have been born under those circumstances?)

If she is a couple missed days of work away from having to choose between heath care or rent, she can't afford her kids. She choose a poor mate. Not my fault. I pay for the kids education through my property taxes. They are getting more from me than my non-existent kids get from me.

If you can't afford to have kids THEN DON'T!!

What do you want me to do? Pay for your kids because "you wanted babies" but cannot pay for them..

 

[QuagmireMcGuire]

Why should we allow MORE people to exploit the system? It will cost more money in taxes. Period. Because those of us that are now only paying for ourselves, will be paying for a portion of the "poor unfortunates" as well. Fvckem.



So you are saying all people should live in a classless society? Move to a Communistic county. I like having the chance to better myself and my family. America is the land of OPPORTUNITY, not "government assure mediocrity". People default on student loans because they take out $100K and blow it in a bullshit major that they can't pay the $1K/mo repayment. I had $106K, and I pay them ALL back. I had a useful major.. That whole personal responsibility thing again.



Life isn't fair. Deal with it. Are housing and food a reward? No. They are necessities, which people pay for. Just some slackers think we should pay for theirs. You want health care beyond your immune system, take care of your body and invest in the insurance.



If she is a couple missed days of work away from having to choose between heath care or rent, she can't afford her kids. She choose a poor mate. Not my fault. I pay for the kids education through my property taxes. They are getting more from me than my non-existent kids get from me.

If you can't afford to have kids THEN DON'T!!

What do you want me to do? Pay for your kids because "you wanted babies" but cannot pay for them..

Can we implement a stronger penalty for those people blatantly abusing the system as it stands? Is there a system in place, already? Maybe we create guidelines which make it harder for people to obtain disability or Medicaid? I don't know. I recognize and agree that there is a problem with people who abuse the system but I don't think we should ignore those who actually need a system.

Nope, didn't say we should live in a classless society. I said we've always lived in a multi-tiered and flawed society. That will never change; what is changing is that more people are being relegated to the bottom of the tier and that is an indication that something is wrong with our society. Is it the quality of education system? Have we created a tax system which benefits corporations more than it does the average American family? Again, I don't have the answers but I am aware that there is a problem here.

So, should everybody pursue engineering degrees because they are useful? What about education majors? They are doing a job which is useful but they aren't getting back what they've put it. I don't think you can say that their major is useless. Let's create a common understanding, which degrees are useful and which degrees are not useful?

So, food and shelter are necessities; why are they necessary- what function do they possess? Why do we need to eat? Could it be that food is necessary to maintaining something.... Why do we need shelter? Is it so that we can have a roof over our heads that protects us from the cold, snow, wind, rain, and etc.? Could it be that protecting ourselves from these elements actually prolong our... something.

 

[eddie]

I think what Quagmire is getting at is that even if everyone was productive and motivated and did all the right things, there would still be some losers in the context of health care coverage. Even in a perfect scenario of our current "system", people go without health care.

On the one hand, I feel like saying, "life isn't fair." On the other, I can see how, in this context, it might be appropriate to lump health care in with other public goods like roads or defense.