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The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

Are you in favor of Universal Health Care?


  • Total voters
    221
What is morality? It is a term encompassing vague idealogies that we all like to throw about but rarely do we ever sit down and define them. Your moral beliefs may be in direct conflict with my moral beliefs yet we presume to engage in a discussion about morality.

If we take the concept of morality and strip it to its most basic level, then we are discussing what is right and what is wrong. I believe it is right that every American citizen have equal access to quality health care. Others disagree.

Please don't act as if we don't already have a society based upon legislating morality. We see it in marriage, divorce, assisted suicide, the death penality, abortion, and other areas. We have always legislated morality; our only problem is trying to come to terms with a cohesive understanding of what is moral.

Oh, its easy to find out if something is moral or not. You just have to check: the pope's website, The Cahechism of the Catholic Church(CCC, "The Bible" "The Compendium of the CCC", regional catechisms, "The Code of Canon Law", the popes' homilies, enciclicals, and bulls, the documents of each of the numerous counsels, the writings of the saints, and the list goes on and on.:p We have 2000 years of paperwork and counting. I love being Catholic!:D
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
If your entry level job in your field does not have good benefits, you should have studied in a better major.

Not our fault people choose to study in worthless degrees.

I had an offer for $55K, Car and full bennies (Insurance, dental, matching 401K) right out of college. Sorry if a liberal arts major or sports management does not offer that.

Should have been an engineer or accountant.. You know, something in demand that pays reasonably well.

Again, accept responsibility for those choices.

The beautiful thing about the USA is a kid that grew up poor, worked hard, made an investment in his education (student loans) and made good on all them can do quite well for themselves.

If you choose not to work hard, or make poor choices.. Sucks to be you.

I have made some good choices (college, engineering major, BDCP) and have benefited from them. I have made some poor choices (got married too young) and pay for those.

Its great we have CHOICES here in the USA instead of the Nanny-State taking care of our every need while taking away our choices.
 

Red Anjin

Pilot Monkey
pilot
Healthcare is not a human right. You don't have the right to food, clothes or good medicine. I'm so tired of people pretending they are 'entitled' to something. You want to blame someone for the problems with the medical system?

Start with the AMA. They artificially restrict the number of students graduating from medical schools in order to keep doctors scarce and salaries high. Doctors in most other countries are just regular people who make average salaries.

Move on to the lawyers. People make mistakes. Doctors are people. When a doctor makes a mistake and someone dies should they be sued for millions of dollars? Of course not (then again my child has never been harmed by a doctors incompetance so I'm not speaking from personal experience). Limiting legal settlements would go a long way to reducing the cost of routine procedures.

You don't like it? Plan. Hope you don't break your leg during that "entry" level job you're in right after college. Invest in some good insurance. If you're living from pay check to pay check STOP SPENDING MONEY and build up a reserve.

Healthcare is not a right and anyone who says it is has something to sell. Specifically they are selling wealth redistribution. The top 5% income earners pay over 50% of the taxes in this country as it is, which is funamentally unfair and unethical. Anyone calling for UHC is advocating the government steal even more of their money to pay for everyone's healthcare.

If you want to wake up and find yourself in a socialist country please move to one of the MANY that already are. Don't warp America into something the founders never intended, never wanted and, I pray, the citizens will never accept.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
That's the issue -- almost nobody can. Do you believe that healthcare is a privilege only to be enjoyed by the top 1% of society?

Of course not. But it is not an inherent right provided for in the Constitution, either. I'm only pointing out that paying cash can be done. Whether or not YOU or I personally can (or choose to) is another matter. I believe that people should be allowed (and forced) to make decisions about their health care. Make that choice based on financial contraints and your personal comfort level for allowable risk.

don't need to come to Yuma; I've seen what an inner city ER can be like. I've also witnessed a surgeon who makes over $500,000 per year bitch and moan that he has to do a procedure for a patient using an HMO for about half his going rate because it's the law. I'm not saying that docs don't deserve to be compensated, but every once in a while you have to eat the losses (which really wouldn't be a loss -- he was still being paid for it, after all). You could also argue that that's part of the Hippocratic Oath.

"How much Doctors make and whether it's fair or not" is an ethical debate entirely apart from what we're debating here.

Under a single-payer system, payment would be a mandatory deduction from your paycheck. Therefore, only 4.7% of the population wouldn't be paying.

Ahhhh.....I get it now. Force me to pay for insurance and let the government decide what level of coverage and benefits I need. That's a FABULOUS idea! I mean, after all, they've done such a bang up job with managing my retirement through social security, why should my healthcare be any different?

The whole thing, mostly.

OK, so you mean the National Health Care System that is currently in effect for all of us? What is it we're debating again?

The link I provided a couple pages ago has the source to my quoted statistics.

Any jackass can crunch some numbers that generate statistics without reference to the heart of the matter. Here, the heart of the matter is more one of principle (who pays for who) than one of abstract data analysis.
 

QuagmireMcGuire

Kinder and Gentler
But it is not an inherent right provided for in the Constitution, either.

Neither is the right to privacy but we expect and demand that, don't we?



Anyway, I just burnt my tongue on some udon noodles so I'm going to take that as a divine sign to shut my mouth.


For the time being.:icon_smil
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Neither is the right to privacy but we expect and demand that, don't we?



Anyway, I just burnt my tongue on some udon noodles so I'm going to take that as a divine sign to shut my mouth.


For the time being.:icon_smil

The right to privacy is derived from what the government CAN'T do. In other words, it is a by-product of governmental restraint. That's a far cry from inventing things that you believe it MUST do. Those items are pretty well "enumerated" in the consitution, and if they aren't there, they're left up to the states to decide.

Oh, and you should listen to what the noodles are telling you.:D
 

QuagmireMcGuire

Kinder and Gentler
The right to privacy is derived from what the government CAN'T do. In other words, it is a by-product of governmental restraint. That's a far cry from inventing things that you believe it MUST do. Those items are pretty well "enumerated" in the consitution, and if they aren't there, they're left up to the states to decide.

Oh, and you should listen to what the noodles are telling you.:D

You want to know what's messed up. That emoticon was supposed to be a kiss but it turned to the little devil guy. >shaking head<

:icon_smil

Did it again! Oh well. I'm out.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I would like to see where you get this info - the cost of research and development of a drug is through the roof, getting the FDA to approve it costs even more. Then what happens when they don't approve the drug? Like any other market, those costs get passed on. While I do not agree with the pharm. companies attempts to drug our country to no end, it does cost a shit ton to get a drug out to the people (before they start advertising).
All of the information I am quoting is readily available on www.amsa.org. Obviously the site has a bias, but I really haven't seen anyone post any hard evidence or research to rebuke it.

Here is a direct link to the pharmacy issue, published in 2001 before we started seeing many more commercials and ads for prescription drugs, along with another link regarding the pharmacy issue:

http://www.amsa.org/pdf/will.PDF
http://www.amsa.org/hp/2005OffLabel_Marketing.pdf

If your entry level job in your field does not have good benefits, you should have studied in a better major.
Not everyone has the mind for an engineering or accounting degree (both mathematically-heavy fields). That's not to say that people who major in something else are dumb, it's just that engineering is too difficult or too boring for them to be able to pay attention long enough to grasp it.

Most entry level jobs require you to go through a period of probation lasting 3-6 months before they offer you benefits. It's just a matter of principle that a company is generally not going to spend money on someone if they aren't going to be a reliable employee. Moreover, a lot of these jobs can turn into quite comfortable careers 2-3 years down the line through promotions and salary raises, similar to the way an O-3 makes a hell of a lot more money than an O-1. I'm happy that you found a job fresh out of college with a good wage and benefits. However, if suddenly everyone in college switched their major to engineering and accounting, since that's apparently where all the killer jobs are, we'd have a lot of unemployment on our hands in the next four years because of an influx of workers and not enough positions. On top of that, not everyone lands their dream job on the first try, and there are bills that need to be paid in the interim. Health insurance, costing what it does, simply gets put on the back burner.

I agree that people really ought to be more careful about what they choose for a major and should start planning out career goals while in college. I would also go so far as to say that most positions that list a college degree as a requirement really have no business doing so. However, the fact remains that someone who takes all those steps still might not get picked up for a job that offers health benefits on graduation day.

Ahhhh.....I get it now. Force me to pay for insurance and let the government decide what level of coverage and benefits I need. That's a FABULOUS idea! I mean, after all, they've done such a bang up job with managing my retirement through social security, why should my healthcare be any different?
Not necessarily. There are many different models for UHC. One of the models for UHC involves the government providing a primary healthcare plan -- regular doctor's visits, catastrophic injuries, etc. You may, if you like, purchase supplemental insurance that covers other stuff like cancer treatment, if necessary.

Also, an ideal UHC single-payer system would be fully comprehensive. In other words, it would cover any and all medically necessary procedures. You might scoff at that notion by saying the government is going to be a tightwad with money, but there are very few insurance companies, if any, that will cover what they deem an "optional" procedure. And seeing that they're trying to make a profit out of the deal, they're more likely to deem something optional than the government. When I broke my teeth at 8 years old by falling off my bike, my parents had to foot the bill because it was considered cosmetic. A government health plan would be no different than this.

The whole crux of my argument for a single-payer system is that it would offer more benefits for less cost to the individual.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
If you got your arm caught in a machine at work, you paid for the injury, and you risked losing one of your jobs.

Just so you're aware, workman's compensation is legal required for pretty much all companies, with very very few exceptions. So, in your example, if you had your arm caught, your employer would be on the hook for your medical care, not you. That applies to practically all accidents. I'm surprised you don't know that as a law school graduate?




People who can't buy insurance because of an "entry level job" amaze me. When I was 16 years old and still in high school, I worked at KFC and put in enough hours to qualify to buy into a limited insurance policy for myself. I didn't need it since I was covered under my parents, but the point still remains.

I still maintain that if a person wants insurance, go get a job that provides the opportunity. If a job doesn't, and a person really wants insurance, go find another job. If I could get it at 16 years old at a fast food joint, I don't think it should be too hard for a college graduate to do the same.


I shouldn't be required to pay for your insurance if you don't have the gumption to go find a job or do what you need to do to have it.
 
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