Stupid questions about Naval Aviation (Pt 2)

[Rass]

Stupid question I guess so here it goes. When going for the meritorious commisioning program it says u can't be a naval flight officer but I don't know the difference between that and a fighter pilot. What is a nfo? And in the mcp can u go onto becoming a fighter pilot?

Correct me if im wrong, but here is what i know:

NFO= Naval Flight Officer
An officer who is in the plane that doesn't fly it. One such position is the back seater of several jets (ex: f-18,f-14) These are the guys responsible for navigation and weapons.

NA= Naval Aviator
In other words, Pilot

 

[igrunt]

hey thanks rass!

 

[Uncle Fester]

"Fighter pilot" is not the preferred nomenclature. Naval Aviator, Dude, please.

 

[highside7r]

Just a quick question about callsigns. Listening to ATC online last night, heard a NAS Jax based P-3 working different approaches into JAX and NIP. Weather was moving into the area, and then heard a Mayport based HSL bird get a quick IFR clearance using the full Navy callsign. My question is why do the fixed-wing guys seem to use tactical callsigns when filed both VFR and IFR, when the helos bubbas use a tactical for VFR, then switch to "Navy AA xxx" when IFR? My HS squadron did this as well, tactical (callsign+modex) during local VFR flights.

Normally for the Army, on range/reservation flights, we use type airframe+tail number (Blackhawk xxx) and then switch to "Army copter xxxxx" on both VFR/IFR filed flights. I wish would be able to keep our ATO assigned tactical callsigns we use in theater.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Just a quick question about callsigns. Listening to ATC online last night, heard a NAS Jax based P-3 working different approaches into JAX and NIP. Weather was moving into the area, and then heard a Mayport based HSL bird get a quick IFR clearance using the full Navy callsign. My question is why do the fixed-wing guys seem to use tactical callsigns when filed both VFR and IFR, when the helos bubbas use a tactical for VFR, then switch to "Navy AA xxx" when IFR? My HS squadron did this as well, tactical (callsign+modex) during local VFR flights.

Normally for the Army, on range/reservation flights, we use type airframe+tail number (Blackhawk xxx) and then switch to "Army copter xxxxx" on both VFR/IFR filed flights. I wish would be able to keep our ATO assigned tactical callsigns we use in theater.

In my fleet squadron we used Alpha Charlie 7XX and Vidar Rocket Number. Forget the reason why we switched back and forth but I think it was how the stereo routes were built. Not sure. In Meridian used Bobcat Rocket number except when students filed as (whatever it was we used) Navy one Alpha something or another.

 

[PropAddict]

Listening to ATC online last night, heard a NAS Jax based P-3 working different approaches into JAX and NIP. Weather was moving into the area

Hey, that might have been "someone I know". Really well. 1 in 3 chance.

My question is why do the fixed-wing guys seem to use tactical callsigns when filed both VFR and IFR, when the helos bubbas use a tactical for VFR, then switch to "Navy AA xxx" when IFR?

It was explained as an "ease of use" thing to me, as the PPC will just always use his personal callsign for filing. Cuts down on confusion and missed radio calls. Supposedly.

 

[MasterBates]

In VT(props/primary) and HTs:
VFR = Ranger/Montana/Eightball XXX
IFR = Navy 1E433 or (squadron number)(WING TAIL CODE)(Modex)

Fleet/RAG Helos
VFR = Airwolf/Proud Warrior 4XX
IFR = Navy HK4xx or HN42x

Jet VTs was HAWK 2XX IFR or VFR

RAG E2s has been

GREYHAWK (EVENT NUMBER) for IFR and VFR. Kind of nice, because if you change aircraft you don't have to call ATC and explain that "Greyhawk 643 is now Greyhawk 654" or similar.

Only time I have heard the Modex (side number) used here is for the ball call and calling base or maintenance.

Example- Today I was "Greyhawk 5" with ATC from Clearance Delivery all the way to Oceana Approach and back to Chambers Ground, but when I was at Fentress we called the ball as "651 Hawkeye Ball, Heavy, Bates"

(usually followed in 15-18 seconds later with BOOOOLTER BOOOOLTER BOOOLTER)

 

[Gatordev]

Just a quick question about callsigns. Listening to ATC online last night, heard a NAS Jax based P-3 working different approaches into JAX and NIP. Weather was moving into the area, and then heard a Mayport based HSL bird get a quick IFR clearance using the full Navy callsign. My question is why do the fixed-wing guys seem to use tactical callsigns when filed both VFR and IFR, when the helos bubbas use a tactical for VFR, then switch to "Navy AA xxx" when IFR? My HS squadron did this as well, tactical (callsign+modex) during local VFR flights.

Because people picked up a habit in the training command and they don't know enough to stop doing it. They have the Mayport controllers so wrapped around this idea that they will not listen to you if you correct them. They just automatically change the callsign mid flight.

Tower: "Asshat 500, I have your clearance, advise ready to copy..."
Asshat: "Ready to copy."
Tower: "HK500, you're cleared to blah blah blah..."
Asshat: "Copy all. Tower, our callsign is Asshat 500."
Tower: "Roger HK500, turn left to 090."
Asshat: "Tower, our callsign is Asshat, not HK."

<silence>

It drives me insane. A JANAP is a JANAP. It's been approved by everyone, so why not use it? And oh by the way, there's times when a tail code will actually get kicked out of the system. Sometimes "NW" doesn't always mean "Northwest."

In short, there is no good reason. Everyone just carries it over from the TRACOM.

 

[highside7r]

Hey, that might have been "someone I know". Really well. 1 in 3 chance

VP-5 and HSL-46 were up that night, also a Coastie bird as well. The site is liveatc.com

Thanks for the quick answers and confusion for VT/RAG flights, but I get it.

MB, I'm guessing "heavy" was a joke instead of your fuel state, or is that different for FCLP hops?

 

[bunk22]

VRC-30's lame callsign is "Password." I however like VRC-50's old callsign, "Green Bush"....which could be shortened to "Bush"...

 

[HH-60H]

It drives me insane. A JANAP is a JANAP. It's been approved by everyone, so why not use it?

Because 3710 strongly recommends against it.

4.6.1 Call Sign Requirements. Call sign selection
for cross-country flights shall be made in accordance
with DOD FLIPs. It is strongly recommended
that squadron modex (NJ213, DB214) be used in flight
planning. If the use of tactical/squadron call signs is
necessary, call signs shall be the approved JANAP 119
call sign for the unit concerned. Abbreviations or
contractions of these call signs is not authorized.

 

[Gatordev]

Huh, I've apparently totally missed that. But I have three "rebuttals," if you will..

1) Then why do the TW-6 guys always fly around w/ their JANAPs? That's a rhetorical question, but an example of how it's not followed. I know it's AF, but I always hear the jet guys using their callsigns en route, as well.

2) This does NOT preclude the use of JANAPs when in the local area, which is already done all the time when VFR. So why must a callsign be changed by ATC from POOPSHOOT 101 to VV PS 101 when I'm flying in the same airspace, which is where my main pet peeve comes in. Again, I perceive it to be a carry over from the TRACOM. The TW-5 FWOP states flights outside the local area will utilize their ECHO number, but doesn't say anything about being REQUIRED to use it when flying IFR w/ in A-292. However, a common misconception was that it was required.

3) As I alluded to, sometimes tail codes aren't conducive to the ATC environment. A perfect example is NW. ATC sees a NW 600 on their screen. There's no NorthWest 600 on their strip, so they delete it out of the system. Then when you check in or call, they have no idea who you are. Yes, this actually happens and has been a problem in my current squadron.

I've had another situation where I was flying aircraft that had no tailcode. Well, a more accurate statement was probably that no one in that command knew what their code was since they hadn't ever owned aircraft before and didn't know how to look it up in the pub. As a result, flying w/ a code just wasn't done. I will say that you get better handling when you have "NAVY" in front of your callsign than if you're just some random callsign in a non-tactical aircraft.

All that said, HH, thanks for the citation. Like I mentioned, I totally missed that paragraph. I have no evidence to back this up, but I have a feeling the genesis of that paragraph is due to the way the ancient ATC system handles alphanumerics. If you're aware of the limit and write your callsign down appropriately (ASSHAT -> ASSHT) then the problem is mostly solved. That's what I end up doing w/ my current callsign and it works fine.

 

[Brett327]

Huh, I've apparently totally missed that. But I have three "rebuttals," if you will..

1) Then why do the TW-6 guys always fly around w/ their JANAPs? That's a rhetorical question, but an example of how it's not followed. I know it's AF, but I always hear the jet guys using their callsigns en route, as well.

2) This does NOT preclude the use of JANAPs when in the local area, which is already done all the time when VFR. So why must a callsign be changed by ATC from POOPSHOOT 101 to VV PS 101 when I'm flying in the same airspace, which is where my main pet peeve comes in. Again, I perceive it to be a carry over from the TRACOM. The TW-5 FWOP states flights outside the local area will utilize their ECHO number, but doesn't say anything about being REQUIRED to use it when flying IFR w/ in A-292. However, a common misconception was that it was required.

3) As I alluded to, sometimes tail codes aren't conducive to the ATC environment. A perfect example is NW. ATC sees a NW 600 on their screen. There's no NorthWest 600 on their strip, so they delete it out of the system. Then when you check in or call, they have no idea who you are. Yes, this actually happens and has been a problem in my current squadron.

I've had another situation where I was flying aircraft that had no tailcode. Well, a more accurate statement was probably that no one in that command knew what their code was since they hadn't ever owned aircraft before and didn't know how to look it up in the pub. As a result, flying w/ a code just wasn't done. I will say that you get better handling when you have "NAVY" in front of your callsign than if you're just some random callsign in a non-tactical aircraft.

All that said, HH, thanks for the citation. Like I mentioned, I totally missed that paragraph. I have no evidence to back this up, but I have a feeling the genesis of that paragraph is due to the way the ancient ATC system handles alphanumerics. If you're aware of the limit and write your callsign down appropriately (ASSHAT -> ASSHT) then the problem is mostly solved. That's what I end up doing w/ my current callsign and it works fine.

Prowlers, and all the fighter guys AFAIK use JNAP exclusively unless we're doing FCLPs or CCAs and we'll go to a hybrid of JNAP + MODEX. Kind of a CV Ops thing for ball calls, etc. So, if I've been on an IFR route with the C/S OUTLAW 6 and I'm going to join the CCA pattern, I'll tell approach when I check in that I'll take the C/S OUTLAW 501, which can be shortened to just 501 if there aren't any other 501's in the pattern. Unlike helos or P-3s, every TACAIR squadron will have the same MODEXs 500, 501, 502, etc.

Brett

 

[skidkid]

Same thing goes for USMC helos. It was interesting working with Navy helos at an AF base (require a DD175). The 60s would file and take off as "Navy blah blah blah" then clear tower and become JNAP.

 

[Brett327]

Same thing goes for USMC helos. It was interesting working with Navy helos at an AF base (require a DD175). The 60s would file and take off as "Navy blah blah blah" then clear tower and become JNAP.

The difference is that if I'm not doing FCLPs or CCAs, I'll still use JNAP with every controlling agency (IFR or VFR), including tower. I remember in my P-3 days, we went through a couple C/S trends over the years, using primarily XX/MODEX with ATC for a couple years, then JNAP after that - kooky.

Brett