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Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yep. It was designed to conduct a number of jobs (including CAP). The Navy vesrion had the primary mission of ship-killing while the USMC version was intended to cross the beach and support the infantry. Of course, today the Army routinely operates AH-64's off of ships.

Are Apaches 'routinely' flying off ships? I know it's been done, but not to the point of it being routine. There was some discussion on here about it a while back and the impression I got from the Army bubbas was basically 'we can do it, but not often and it's a redass.'

The Brits, at least, have modded theirs for ship ops (corrosion-proofing, folding blades, etc) in the name of maintaining some kind of seaborne attack capability once they sundowned their Harriers.

581cbd08b8f43a64511e56cd697307f3.jpg
Defence_Imagery_-_Helicopters_landing_aboard_HMS_Illustrious_05.jpg
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Are Apaches 'routinely' flying off ships?

I have a friend in the Texas Guard who says he has done it on three different ATs and my thought is that if the Guard is doing it..everyone is doing it. Maybe "routine" is too sweeping and I certainly don't mean off of frigates (the guard guys flew off some flat deck gator freighter like an LHD). Also, as you note, the Brits are really getting into this.

Here is an article I found.
http://cimsec.org/armys-apaches-bring-fight-to-maritime-and-littoral-operations/21499
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Current VFA LSO here so I'll give my $.02. On my cruise each squadron ideally had 4 LSOs (this varied as senior guys left and they trained up new guys, but 4 was the goal). That meant we would wave every fourth day which also meant we didn't stand SDO. We did stand Romeo still and being an LSO really had no bearing on ground jobs, other than that the senior one was the Head LSO (not taxing and wouldn't be considered a primary ground job). I would say being a paddles is generally sought after because it does open up interesting doors, it's fun, and getting out of SDO on the boat is a nice perk. Selection is a mix of timing, performance, and personality. The timing has to fit for the squadron, you can't be a liability behind the boat, and you have to be able to professionally debrief your peers and your seniors (up to O-7 in some CSGs). Basically, pass the "good dude" test.

More specifically for your questions:
-Most guys/gals will typically "rush" by spending time on the platform during flight ops and show an interest. Squadron timing may dictate taking someone who doesn't seem interested or not taking someone who really seems to want it. I've not heard of anyone turning it down.

-Since there are 4 LSOs per squadron, there's typically not an issue filling in. Each squadron has a representative on the platform every fly day, so there are typically 2-3 LSOs in the peanut gallery that don't have specific job on a given recovery, so being limited on bodies isn't usually an issue. Jobs/roles usually change every recovery to get people experience/OJT

-There's a formal ground school that's required for squadron/wing quals, but it's mostly OJT. You can easily have the skills and experience level of a wing qual without the ground school, but you'd still need the school for the qual.
Is there ever a case of a Paddles waiving another squadron's pilot (same T/M/S), or does every pass need to be graded by the same squadron? I have met several LSO's in my time and they all seem to have been above average in both performance and their selection for bigger & better things after their tour. True ?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Are Apaches 'routinely' flying off ships? I know it's been done, but not to the point of it being routine. There was some discussion on here about it a while back and the impression I got from the Army bubbas was basically 'we can do it, but not often and it's a redass.'

It is a contingency that they maintain currency for, though. We've started having Apache guys do DLQs in our sims and now some local Blackhawk guys are looking for training time, as well.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
I'd imagine there's increased motivation from the combination of Apache guys looking for work and Navy side realizing they might be pretty good at killing things on the water too.
 

BigJeffray

Sans Remorse
pilot
Is there ever a case of a Paddles waiving another squadron's pilot (same T/M/S), or does every pass need to be graded by the same squadron? I have met several LSO's in my time and they all seem to have been above average in both performance and their selection for bigger & better things after their tour. True ?

The squadron and platform don't affect who waves. There are usually 4 Wave Teams made up of a member of each squadron in the Airwing and one of those Paddles will be a team lead. The team lead usually determines the duties for each recovery on that wave day. This is based on everyone's experience and training needs. If everyone is able to perform the duties of each position then it's usually a simple rotation. So you own your assigned position for a recovery, regardless of what type of plane is rolling into the groove. CAG Paddles is in charge, and always reserves the right to change the assignments based on experience level, conditions, emergencies, etc. So the jet guys wave the props and the prop guys wave the jets just the same, and squadron doesn't make any difference. The controlling LSO (called "Primary") debriefs the passes for his/her recovery through all of the ready rooms.
 

armada1651

Hey intern, get me a Campari!
pilot
Is there ever a case of a Paddles waiving another squadron's pilot (same T/M/S), or does every pass need to be graded by the same squadron? I have met several LSO's in my time and they all seem to have been above average in both performance and their selection for bigger & better things after their tour. True ?

Everyday. You'll pretty much always have one LSO from your squadron on the platform but they may or may not be grading on your pass. You can be graded and debriefed by anyone on the team, including guys of different T/M/S. To your other question, yes and no. Having an LSO qual makes you an asset for the RAG, which tends to be good for a career, but also for the VTs, which tends to be very bad. So it seems to vary.

Disclaimer: not an LSO myself.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
The squadron and platform don't affect who waves. There are usually 4 Wave Teams made up of a member of each squadron in the Airwing and one of those Paddles will be a team lead. The team lead usually determines the duties for each recovery on that wave day. This is based on everyone's experience and training needs. If everyone is able to perform the duties of each position then it's usually a simple rotation. So you own your assigned position for a recovery, regardless of what type of plane is rolling into the groove. CAG Paddles is in charge, and always reserves the right to change the assignments based on experience level, conditions, emergencies, etc. So the jet guys wave the props and the prop guys wave the jets just the same, and squadron doesn't make any difference. The controlling LSO (called "Primary") debriefs the passes for his/her recovery through all of the ready rooms.
Good stuff - thanks for the gouge !
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
I'd imagine there's increased motivation from the combination of Apache guys looking for work and Navy side realizing they might be pretty good at killing things on the water too.
Apache guys looking for work? Not right now. And yes, they fly off boats when they aren't busy doing other things, which unfortunately is rare.

LMAO about the other comment above that if the guard s doing it, everyone is doing it!
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I'd imagine there's increased motivation from the combination of Apache guys looking for work and Navy side realizing they might be pretty good at killing things on the water too.

Utilizing Apaches over water with Navy assets has been around pre-9/11. And that's about all that can be said about that.
 

Caesium

Blue is my favorite color
Another dumb question.

During the Turkish coup attempt I remember one of the coupist helicopters got shot down. I wondered whether the pilot made it, which brings me to the question:

Not sure if this is the best way to phrase this, but if your helicopter gets shot down (or is otherwise unable to continue flying), about how screwed are you? I'm sure the answer is some variant of "it depends," but what are some of the factors it would depend on?
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Another dumb question.

During the Turkish coup attempt I remember one of the coupist helicopters got shot down. I wondered whether the pilot made it, which brings me to the question:

Not sure if this is the best way to phrase this, but if your helicopter gets shot down (or is otherwise unable to continue flying), about how screwed are you? I'm sure the answer is some variant of "it depends," but what are some of the factors it would depend on?

Getting shot down in any aircraft is bad.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Another dumb question.

During the Turkish coup attempt I remember one of the coupist helicopters got shot down. I wondered whether the pilot made it, which brings me to the question:

Not sure if this is the best way to phrase this, but if your helicopter gets shot down (or is otherwise unable to continue flying), about how screwed are you? I'm sure the answer is some variant of "it depends," but what are some of the factors it would depend on?
Depends on what you mean by "unable to continue flying." If you mean you aircraft has now become a rock then how bad it's going to hurt will be largely dependent on height. Anything over about 10ft is probably going to hurt a lot. If you mean some ability to fly all the way to the crash site then you've got some chance to lower the damage. But you could still be pretty dead pretty quick.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
As a former ARNG guy who thought crossing state lines for an AT I'm sticking with my comment!
How long ago was that? I can say I am currently a long way from my state line and travel several times a year outside AT. We do many missions active duty units don't do.
 
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