So you want to be a CAG (but can't)...

[phrogpilot73]

2. I've seen one (1) helo skipper who routinely stuck his head in on strike mission planning cells. He would come hang out in CATCC during recoveries. He would fly with whatever fixed wing squadrons could hook him up. He was always in AWF debriefs and, generally speaking, made a concerted effort to learn how the rest of the air wing thought, planned, briefed, and operated. Again, he was the only one. That's not an indictment of all the others, but many of them were too busy micromanaging their own DHs and trying to unscrew self inflicted injuries and unforced errors to care too much about anyone else on the O-3 level. That last sentence might ruffle some feathers as it's misinterpreted into "helo guys suck" - that is not at all what I wrote. This is a comparison between one helo guy who SHOULD be a CAG and others who were barely hanging on.

To me, that's pathetic and explains more about why helo guys aren't CAGs then anything else I've read. I was thinking of one guy in particular. Spectacular leader, great officer who had a phenomenal amount of understanding of carrier based aviation and how it worked (probably one of those guys that actually stuck his head in and picked brains), but he was a Phibron Commodore. He's there because you'll never see a TACAIR guy as a Phibron Commodore - but this guy's entire background was carrier aviation (HS type) and really was out of his depth in the world of amphibious operations. Likely would have made a phenomenal CAG - but again, he was a helo guy so off to amphib land he went - and again wasn't exactly the best fit.

EDIT - and by pathetic, it's pathetic that you've only seen one dude do that.

 

[MasterBates]

I've been a Helo Guy, both as a Small Deck "normal" HSL, and farmed out to the HS Squadron.

I've also been a Hummer guy, who contrary to what some may say, had a hell of a lot more "big picture" shit than any VFA JO I knew, and developed tactics using all airwing assets.

Helo guys are as capable as a Hummer CAG, provided they give a shit and learn about others.

I've seen numerous CAGs who don't know/care what goes on with VAW, VRC (hey, more than just cargo), HS, HSL, and they are missing the big picture. Yet, they are "Qualified" to lead them.

It's strictly a pointy nose guys not wanting to share the wealth, and saying they have people skills to deal with the fighters because the helo/hummer crowd cannot (see: Office Space).

Just my opinion. Pretty sure it's going to be a TACAIR vs Helo dick measuring contest, with us weird HummerClowns on the sidelines.. As an associate member of the TACAIR Kool Kids Club, I side with the helo guys, and am now ducking the incoming fire from the "full members" of the TACAIR club.

 

[jmcquate]

So no more "Big Lebowski" quotes?

 

[insanebikerboy]

2. I've seen one (1) helo skipper who routinely stuck his head in on strike mission planning cells. He would come hang out in CATCC during recoveries. He would fly with whatever fixed wing squadrons could hook him up. He was always in AWF debriefs and, generally speaking, made a concerted effort to learn how the rest of the air wing thought, planned, briefed, and operated. Again, he was the only one. That's not an indictment of all the others, but many of them were too busy micromanaging their own DHs and trying to unscrew self inflicted injuries and unforced errors to care too much about anyone else on the O-3 level. That last sentence might ruffle some feathers as it's misinterpreted into "helo guys suck" - that is not at all what I wrote. This is a comparison between one helo guy who SHOULD be a CAG and others who were barely hanging on.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make, albeit not quite as clear as you put it. In this case this helo guy should be a CAG but by default he can't even be considered.

You're making my point here. I never said it should be a pointy-nosed guy, but it has to be someone who does strike warfare (Prowlers and Hummers included). The E-2 guys control the strike. They have experience at planning and executing strike. It's their primary mission. The fact that this is lost on you proves my point. Just because some random E-2 JOs don't know what's going on just means they're your average mid-tour JO who hasn't matured in platform yet. The experienced guys know exactly what's going on, pilot or NFO.

Then educate me on what E-2 pilots do on planning? And how exactly does the E-2 pilot manage the battlespace when all of that is taking place on screens he can't even see? An E-2 pilot may have an understanding of the big picture, but so can anyone in the airwing who pays attention in briefings and planning cells.

you've answered your own question and then went full "woe is me" mode.?.

The funny thing is that I don't give a rats ass if helo guys make CAG or not, it's just that saying a helo guy can't be a CAG by default when you yourself gave an example of a helo guy who should be CAG and can't.

 

[bert]

Multiple generations of pointy-nosed Air Bosses, if you want to be specific. Unless we had a helo/maritime CNAF while I wasn't looking.

It is a fiefdom, and a good one to have for their community because if you don't screw it up it can easily lead to a star. Though I don't doubt there are guys from other communities who could build themselves a competent staff and do fine in the job, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that the current system is bad for the Navy. If the pointy-nosed guys couldn't muster up enough decent candidates then it would be a problem, but they can, so that eliminates one potentially valid argument. I suppose you could argue that a helo guy would bring divergent paradigms and out-of-the-box thinking to the job, but if you did make that argument I would counter with the fact that I don't think the Navy is looking for that. (And then I would tell you that you sound like a douche).

The "fairness" argument, on the other hand, is just stupid*. If you want the full range of career options available to you in the Navy then don't go helos. It's as simple as that. The Navy doesn't owe you the chance to be a CAG - if that is important to you then I'd do whatever it takes to not go helos.




* And no, don't try to throw out the affirmative action comparison here. If you are smart enough to be in this discussion then you ought to be smart enough to tell the difference between somebody being born female or selecting RW out of primary.

 

[helolumpy]

It was explained to me as FNG as: "people generally understand the battle space below them better than that above them" and I've found that's usually a fairly accurate stereotype... except for Osprey guys, who can't even understand a compass, let alone airspace.

/asshole jet guy

Gotta disagree with the thought as you state it.
If you are talking about "levels of war" then I would agree. Since leaders at the Operational Level all succeeded at the Tactical Level, it makes sense.

But your as I interpret your post, I have yet to meet many Navy TACAIR pilot who understands helos. Hell, 50% of the guys I've deployed with couldn't tell you the differences between the 60B, 60F and 60H and the HS, HSL, & HC communities. Helo guys tended to have more of a clue about fixed wings ops then fixed wing guys have of "fling wing" ops

 

[Brett327]

Bert, I think you hit the nail on the head and explained what I was getting at. I'd take it a step farther and say that not only does the current system work for big navy, but it's an area that would be dangerous to tinker with, given the critical importance of a CAGs responsibility.

@IBB: You could start by cracking one of a dozen strike related pubs. I would also refer you to the E2 ACTC syllabus, but beyond that, you'll have to ask one of them. You might start by talking to your E2 squadron CO or XO. More than likely, they know what they're talking about.

Brett

 

[KBayDog]

Is there nothing better to do on a perfectly good Friday night than argue on the internets? Is this really as good as it gets for Naval Aviation?

This is a riot...yet I find myself weeping...

 

[insanebikerboy]

Bert, I think you hit the nail on the head and explained what I was getting at. I'd take it a step farther and say that not only does the current system work for big navy, but it's an area that would be dangerous to tinker with, given the critical importance of a CAGs responsibility.

@IBB: You could start by cracking one of a dozen strike related pubs. I would also refer you to the E2 ACTC syllabus, but beyond that, you'll have to ask one of them. You might start by talking to your E2 squadron CO or XO. More than likely, they know what they're talking about.

Brett

Fair enough, but bert put it better than any of the rest of us. It's the way it is because it's the way it is.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Is there nothing better to do on a perfectly good Friday night than argue on the internets? Is this really as good as it gets for Naval Aviation?

This is a riot...yet I find myself weeping...

Yup, when you got three little kids this is about as exciting as it gets!

 

[Recovering LSO]

The funny thing is that I don't give a rats ass if helo guys make CAG or not, it's just that saying a helo guy can't be a CAG...

I didn't say they couldn't. I've clearly stated that IOT be qualified, helo CO's have got to do more than all but the one I referenced.

In this case this helo guy should be a CAG but by default he can't even be considered.

sure he can. and probably will be, considered. will he be selected?

and to your point about anyone in the airwing having the ability to build, maintain, enhance, and distribute SA during a strike because they sat through a brief.... in my best Chris Berman voice, "c'mon man".....

 

[MasterBates]

Then educate me on what E-2 pilots do on planning? And how exactly does the E-2 pilot manage the battlespace when all of that is taking place on screens he can't even see?

Normally, scrub the airspace/altitude plans to make sure they jive, nobody put a tanker track in a WEZ, and try to correlate SAFIRE reports.
I've had to explain to VFA "Superstars" why they can't do certain things, like refuel in Iranian Airspace.
Basically, me, and most other VAW pilots acted as a big "sanity check".

Personally, I also did a lot of the Helo/SSC/ASW planning, because I had experience in it. YMMV. Me and an Ex-VS guy did a lot of the SSC stuff.

An E-2 pilot may have an understanding of the big picture, but so can anyone in the airwing who pays attention in briefings and planning cells..

THIS.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Is there nothing better to do on a perfectly good Friday night than argue on the internets? Is this really as good as it gets for Naval Aviation?

This is a riot...yet I find myself weeping...

I'm doing it in between packing for my 7 day Western Carribean cruise on the Norwegian Star. Suckas!!

 

[Pags]

Caveat: Not a CVW guy.

To answer Revan's question a little better, CAG is not just one man. He has a staff of SMEs to assist him in his decision making. Amongst these staffers are HSM and HSC reps to help with the helo questions. I'm fairly certain he has reps from the other communities as well to help CAG address issues that aren't covered by his past experience. In addition to the CAG reps, he also has two helo squadrons worth of of experienced officers who can assist. Reasons like these and the ones addressed above are why staffs exist, to support The Man.

 

[revan1013]

To answer Revan's question a little better, CAG is not just one man. He has a staff of SMEs to assist him in his decision making. Amongst these staffers are HSM and HSC reps to help with the helo questions.

Thanks Pags. And thank you gentlemen for the interesting debate that came out of my question. It's actually really illuminating for me to see the various points of view and points of contention on the topic. I had no idea it was such a hot topic (not that kind...).

I like hearing about, learning about, and understanding the big picture stuff. I know I'm a young, inexperienced guy with zero fleet experience, so I really appreciate the answers and the debate going on around my question. I know my primary responsibility now is to learn my aircraft, learn how to fight it, and learn how to be a junior officer. I think it's important that us junior guys have an idea how the big picture works. I'm here to learn, and the debates are much more interesting than just a bland one-sentence answer.