USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[Austin-Powers]

Just a question, could they possibly invest in an aircraft that doesn't use as much gas compared to the F-18? Is it a matter of staying on station and providing support to those guys on the ground such as JTAC or CSAR? To echo what Brett said, it seems foolish to learn a new set of aircraft when the F-15 just upgrades and the syllabus that follows.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

it appeared that one of his big arguments was the availability of Boeing being able to produce the jet right now (and keep the production line open) while the ability of the F-15, F-16 and F-35 factories to produce substantially more was questionable.

Boeing already makes the EX which the Block 3 Rhinos compete with for several common high demand parts (LPHUD and LAD for example). Additionally, Boeing has already said they're getting out of the Rhino business. After the last 20 come of the line in FY25 the line is going dark. It's unlikely Boeing decides to forego NGAD development to for 2 more years of building Rhinos (my mostly informed opinion).

 

[MIDNJAC]

Boeing already makes the EX which the Block 3 Rhinos compete with for several common high demand parts (LPHUD and LAD for example). Additionally, Boeing has already said they're getting out of the Rhino business. After the last 20 come of the line in FY25 the line is going dark. It's unlikely Boeing decides to forego NGAD development to for 2 more years of building Rhinos (my mostly informed opinion).

This. Boeing tried as hard as they could to extend the E/F/G line, but it wasn’t in the cards. They are building 2x month right now through ‘25. Straight out of the horse’s mouth this am during factory tour. I’m not advocating for either of these aircraft in this role, but increasing throughput on the EX/SA line (which is comparatively huge BTW), I’d think would be a better bet. And it is a nice jet that the USAF already operates (in other forms). Strike Eagle was already a very capable CAS platform.

 

[Brett327]

I thought it was odd that the author (a 2,000 hour A-10 pilot) was in favor of the F/A-18 over any of the Air Force jets, although it appeared that one of his big arguments was the availability of Boeing being able to produce the jet right now (and keep the production line open) while the ability of the F-15, F-16 and F-35 factories to produce substantially more was questionable.

Just for overall perspective, the F-15 and F-18 are made in the same factory in St Louis, though I can't speak to the demand/capacity on the F-15 side. I think the Rhino Blk III production/SLEP keeps the line open for another year or so. There is some continuing FMS interest in Growler and Rhino. Bottom line, everyone was flailing their arms when we thought the Rhino/Growler line was going to shut down way back in 2015, and here we are 8 years later, still cranking them out. I made 3-4 trips per year to St Louis when I was at HAVOC and HIGHLY recommend folks go there and tour the production lines - even if you're not in that platform.

I get it, the A-10 is going away - something which is LONG overdue, frankly. I don't blame the smart folks in that community for looking at every alternative, but the proposed Rhino solution feels an awful lot like grasping at straws.

 

[Brett327]

Boeing already makes the EX which the Block 3 Rhinos compete with for several common high demand parts (LPHUD and LAD for example). Additionally, Boeing has already said they're getting out of the Rhino business. After the last 20 come of the line in FY25 the line is going dark. It's unlikely Boeing decides to forego NGAD development to for 2 more years of building Rhinos (my mostly informed opinion).

From the class desk horse's mouth.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Boeing already makes the EX which the Block 3 Rhinos compete with for several common high demand parts (LPHUD and LAD for example). Additionally, Boeing has already said they're getting out of the Rhino business. After the last 20 come of the line in FY25 the line is going dark. It's unlikely Boeing decides to forego NGAD development to for 2 more years of building Rhinos (my mostly informed opinion).

Just for overall perspective, the F-15 and F-18 are made in the same factory in St Louis, though I can't speak to the demand/capacity on the F-15 side. I think the Rhino Blk III production/SLEP keeps the line open for another year or so. There is some continuing FMS interest in Growler and Rhino. Bottom line, everyone was flailing their arms when we thought the Rhino/Growler line was going to shut down way back in 2015, and here we are 8 years later, still cranking them out. I made 3-4 trips per year to St Louis when I was at HAVOC and HIGHLY recommend folks go there and tour the production lines - even if you're not in that platform.

I get it, the A-10 is going away - something which is LONG overdue, frankly. I don't blame the smart folks in that community for looking at every alternative, but the proposed Rhino solution feels an awful lot like grasping at straws.

Thanks for the information. I was wondering why an experienced A-10 pilot would advocate for the F/A-18 over other Air Force options- production line availability seemed the most plausible part of his argument. Will be curious to see if the Warthogs go to the boneyard or somewhere else.

 

[WhiskeySierra6]

From the class desk horse's mouth.

Former...on to greener pastures. ?

 

[sevenhelmet]

Thanks for the information. I was wondering why an experienced A-10 pilot would advocate for the F/A-18 over other Air Force options- production line availability seemed the most plausible part of his argument. Will be curious to see if the Warthogs go to the boneyard or somewhere else.

I don’t understand his argument at all. F-15EX line is open for business, and seems like a better choice for dedicated CAS than an F/A-18… more gas, more hard points, no CATOBAR performance penalty. what am I missing here?

The USAF’s organizational bent against the A-10 has historically been a little unfair, in my opinion, given the platform’s history of success in multiple conflicts. But it’s getting pretty long in the tooth.

 

[Flash]

Will be curious to see if the Warthogs go to the boneyard or somewhere else.

Probably the boneyard, like the S-3 (same engines!) they'll likely be too expensive for another country to operate. I remember that the CSAF said years ago that he would have to retire 3 times as many F-16's to get the same savings than if the USAF retired the whole A-10 fleet due to all the airframe-specific stuff associated with a separate fleet of aircraft from parts to training. That is why the KC-10 is being retired before KC-135's, the juice ain't worth the squeeze keeping a fleet of ~60 tankers versus ~400.

The only exception? Politics. It's a big part of the reason the A-10 is still around in the first place.

The USAF’s organizational bent against the A-10 has historically been a little unfair, in my opinion, given the platform’s history of success in multiple conflicts. But it’s getting pretty long in the tooth.

Eh, it's been a decent platform but I think a lot of it is propaganda is as well...a bit like the F-14. Most successful tank killing aircraft of the Gulf War? Not the A-10! Notably they did it without a single loss either. So yeah, from a service perspective I can understand the USAF's 'organizational bent'.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Eh, it's been a decent platform but I think a lot of it is propaganda is as well...a bit like the F-14. Most successful tank killing aircraft of the Gulf War? Not the A-10! Notably they did it without a single loss either. So yeah, from a service perspective I can understand the USAF's 'organizational bent'.

Fair point, but that still wasn't enough to save the F-111 from the boneyard.

 

[Flash]

Fair point, but that still wasn't enough to save the F-111 from the boneyard.

They were already being replaced, fortunately or not there is no specific one-for-one 'replacement' for the A-10.

 

[nittany03]

I don’t understand his argument at all. F-15EX line is open for business, and seems like a better choice for dedicated CAS than an F/A-18… more gas, more hard points, no CATOBAR performance penalty. what am I missing here?

The USAF’s organizational bent against the A-10 has historically been a little unfair, in my opinion, given the platform’s history of success in multiple conflicts. But it’s getting pretty long in the tooth.

The article reads like he’s hanging his hat on some kind of USMC-esque expeditionary airfield CONOP. As in disperse the force to shorter and smaller airfields than an F-15 can land at by putting short-field gear in for landing and then light-loading gas for takeoff, followed by a big bag of front-side tanker gas.

Which is an idea, but it seems to handwave away the fact that the tankers still have to be based someplace, and you can still IRBM the shit out of those bases.

 

[MIDNJAC]

They were already being replaced, fortunately or not there is no specific one-for-one 'replacement' for the A-10.

I'm not sure we ever really "replaced" the -111 (or A-6 for that matter), but we did buy new planes that filled those roles. I'd say the F-15E was probably more successful in that endeavor than the F/A-18E/F

 

[Brett327]

I'm not sure we ever really "replaced" the -111 (or A-6 for that matter), but we did buy new planes that filled those roles. I'd say the F-15E was probably more successful in that endeavor than the F/A-18E/F

It would be interesting to study platform employment and effectiveness in terms of what the ATO line tasked vs what actually happened during that flight - I.E., how F-18s tasked w/ XINT or XCAS executed compared to F-15, F-16, etc. Someone with a data science background, and access to historical ATOs and MISREPS could probably produce a ton of very interesting things.

 

[JTS11]

I'm not sure we ever really "replaced" the -111 (or A-6 for that matter), but we did buy new planes that filled those roles. I'd say the F-15E was probably more successful in that endeavor than the F/A-18E/F

Sir, nobody knows what a F/A-18E/F is.

Is that a specific designator of a caliber of butt plug?

Seems like a lot of slashes, hyphens, and whatnots IMO...

On further research, it seems an 'E' is small caliber. Not sure what caliber the 'F' is, but it seems there's an upgraded plug called a 'Growler'?