Return of Turboprops to CAS role?

[bunk22]

I'd sign up tomorrow and have asked Heyjoe about it but unless you'r a fast FAC (18's or AV8B's), forget about it. I could easily fly that plane but so can they and they have all the knowledge for the mission, no initial training required. I think over at baseops some of the folks were talking about this and a Vietnam era O-1 FAC pilot had flown 100+ missions in theatre and came back to the US and requested to teach at their FAC FRS (for lack of the appropriate term). He was turned down since they only took fast movers as IP's. He had over 100 missions in Vietnam but couldn't teach??

 

[Gatordev]

Seriously, I was just sharing my excitement for the program and not starting any hate and discontent within the ranks.

No problem. I just know that for a while, the Flying Warrants at VT-6 were out of control and had to be sat down and "trained" (not by me, for the record) on their attitudes at one point. That's why I made the comment.

 

[Mumbles]

http://www.military.com/news/article/secret-program-works-to-field-seal-plane.html?ESRC=navy-a.nl

 

[bunk22]

No problem. I just know that for a while, the Flying Warrants at VT-6 were out of control and had to be sat down and "trained" (not by me, for the record) on their attitudes at one point. That's why I made the comment.

Interesting. I flew with a few and never sense a problem. Maybe they had been spoken too by that time?? I had exactly three guys with attitudes while there, one was a prior and the other two, not sure what was the issue. One of em got a ready room unsat from me, not for attitude but for lack of knowledge.

 

[BlkPny]

I'd sign up tomorrow and have asked Heyjoe about it but unless you'r a fast FAC (18's or AV8B's), forget about it. I could easily fly that plane but so can they and they have all the knowledge for the mission, no initial training required.

Then how did we do it? Fresh out of the training command, nothing but T-34, T-28, and S-2 time, yet we managed to do it. Not to burst their balloon, but "all the knowledge for the mission" is an overstatement. What they need to learn about the flying can be taught in a few months in a RAG. The important part is developing a working ROE, and ignoring all the rest of the crap.

The most important thing for this new entity is to let them do what they are there for. In 385+ missions, I honestly don't ever remember being denied clearance to fire.

 

[MasterBates]

Sometimes I wonder if the FAC(A) is more of a "keeping good deal amongst ourselves" vice a real requirement. I'll leave that for others to decide.

I'd fly one if they ask.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Then how did we do it? Fresh out of the training command, nothing but T-34, T-28, and S-2 time, yet we managed to do it. Not to burst their balloon, but "all the knowledge for the mission" is an overstatement. What they need to learn about the flying can be taught in a few months in a RAG...

Sometimes I wonder if the FAC(A) is more of a "keeping good deal amongst ourselves" vice a real requirement. I'll leave that for others to decide...

I think MB's right on. The fast-FAC(A) world is a tight Union shop these days, and they're being enabled by higher-ups scared shitless of someone busting ROE and/or CDE on their watch. Anyone with gold wings and a good basic understanding of CAS could do it with training, but I can't see NAVAIR or NSW signing off on Super Tuc GSA guys who are anything but FAC(A) qualified already.

 

[Pags]

Sometimes I wonder if the FAC(A) is more of a "keeping good deal amongst ourselves" vice a real requirement. I'll leave that for others to decide.

Ah, the "what's the point of a qual if everyone can have it" school of thought. See also the HS community.

 

[Flash]

Don't get your panties in a wad over them only taking experienced second-tour or later VF/VFA guys for this good deal, it is/has happened in the Navy for other 'special' squadrons and should be no surprise. This appears to be a pretty small, high-vis and high risk program that will be closely watched and with a pretty special focus, and while a FAC (A) qual might be required I imagine that an individual aircrew's rep will have a lot to do with their selection.

It is a good deal, and I would love to be part of it just like any other red-blooded Naval Aviator, but put some trust in those who are in charge that they know what they are doing.

 

[bunk22]

Then how did we do it? Fresh out of the training command, nothing but T-34, T-28, and S-2 time, yet we managed to do it. Not to burst their balloon, but "all the knowledge for the mission" is an overstatement. What they need to learn about the flying can be taught in a few months in a RAG. The important part is developing a working ROE, and ignoring all the rest of the crap.

The most important thing for this new entity is to let them do what they are there for. In 385+ missions, I honestly don't ever remember being denied clearance to fire.

You sir are the expert and an original. I agree and my guess is it's a community horded by a few but being so small, they need those quals. I recently read the Black Pony book and noticed the number of prop drivers, even mulit-engine who did the job just fine. I'm a prop guy with 2500 hours in C-2/T-34 and next year, T-6. If they would let me do it, I'd go in heartbeat.

 

[Pap]

Anyone else on this site a FAC(A) and want to chime in?

Gents the FAC(A) qual is not simply a "good deal" qual. Only very few F-18F guys get that qual. Those that are chosen by the CO to get the qual have to have displayed a history of superior airmanship and head work. It’s a huge responsibility and the whole Air Wing looks at those 2 or 3 crews as the CAS experts. The syllabus itself is not easy and not everyone who starts the syllabus actually passes.

I think MB's right on. The fast-FAC(A) world is a tight Union shop these days,

I don’t understand what you mean by tight union shop. FAC(A)s are chosen from the JO ranks of F-18F squadrons by the CO and then sent up for approval to CAG. After CAGs blessing the Prospective FAC(A)s get put through a pretty demanding lecture/Sim/Flight syllabus by the Weapons School. Like I said, not everyone who goes through the syllabus actually completes.

and they're being enabled by higher-ups scared shitless of someone busting ROE and/or CDE on their watch.

Like I said, being a FAC(A) is a huge responsibility.

 

[PropAddict]

being a FAC(A) is a huge responsibility.

I don't think anyone was disagreeing. The crux is that we, the assembled mass of non-FAC(A)'s, were wondering if this particular job actually required the qual or whether it is a wicket put in place solely to limit the applicant pool.

 

[bunk22]

Anyone else on this site a FAC(A) and want to chime in?

Gents the FAC(A) qual is not simply a "good deal" qual. Only very few F-18F guys get that qual. Those that are chosen by the CO to get the qual have to have displayed a history of superior airmanship and head work. It’s a huge responsibility and the whole Air Wing looks at those 2 or 3 crews as the CAS experts. The syllabus itself is not easy and not everyone who starts the syllabus actually passes.

I don’t understand what you mean by tight union shop. FAC(A)s are chosen from the JO ranks of F-18F squadrons by the CO and then sent up for approval to CAG. After CAGs blessing the Prospective FAC(A)s get put through a pretty demanding lecture/Sim/Flight syllabus by the Weapons School. Like I said, not everyone who goes through the syllabus actually completes.

All of that is understandable and the fact that there aren't many Super T's anyway, it is for the few trained in that mission. However, BlkPny is an original Black Pony and they used prop guys for that mission, as well as fast movers (granted times have changed a bit but it's still a slow prop aircraft). Now if there were a big squadron, like back in the day, maybe opening it up to the masses "might" be more doable. I don't think we'll ever reach that point anyway.

 

[Flash]

All of that is understandable and the fact that there aren't many Super T's anyway, it is for the few trained in that mission. However, BlkPny is an original Black Pony and they used prop guys for that mission, as well as fast movers (granted times have changed a bit but it's still a slow prop aircraft). Now if there were a big squadron, like back in the day, maybe opening it up to the masses "might" be more doable. I don't think we'll ever reach that point anyway.

I would be stating the obvious that times have changed, drastically, but CAS is not the same business it was when VAL-4 was around 40 years ago. There are a myriad of TTP's and weapons that are now on the plate that was not around then. It wouldn't just be sending aircrew through a RAG to get them up to speed, this would be varsity-level work even for VFA FAC(A) types. When staffing 'special' squadrons in other communities in the Navy they almost always only take experienced aircrew in type, not just any fixed-wing or helo guys, and it is combination of quals and reputation that get you in the door.

Now I know there would be quite a few guys from outside VFA that might do well in this type of mission and aircraft, but the ease of training and the chances of 'success' will be higher if they take from guys who already have the background and experience in the field, which is CAS and FAC(A). If it was insertion of SEALS via low-level paradrop, they would take VRC, etc. It is the path of least resistance and surest way to success, simple as that.

 

[bunk22]

I would be stating the obvious that times have changed, drastically, but CAS is not the same business it was when VAL-4 was around 40 years ago. There are a myriad of TTP's and weapons that are now on the plate that was not around then. It wouldn't just be sending aircrew through a RAG to get them up to speed, this would be varsity-level work even for VFA FAC(A) types. When staffing 'special' squadrons in other communities in the Navy they almost always only take experienced aircrew in type, not just any fixed-wing or helo guys, and it is combination of quals and reputation that get you in the door.

Now I know there would be quite a few guys from outside VFA that might do well in this type of mission and aircraft, but the ease of training and the chances of 'success' will be higher if they take from guys who already have the background and experience in the field, which is CAS and FAC(A). If it was insertion of SEALS via low-level paradrop, they would take VRC, etc. It is the path of least resistance and surest way to success, simple as that.

Again, totally makes sense and I agree. Especially given the small number of aircraft. I would say though if it became a big community, which it probably would not, ever, opening it up might be a good thing to do. As to Vietnam, though things have changed, it was still a dangerous world then, just look at our losses in that war (a very general statement being so much went into why we lost so many) but it doesn't take away the fact that guys right out of the OV-10 FRS were able to do the job.

BTW, of all people on this site, BlkPny is the man when it comes to FAC flying.