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Random Griz Aviation Musings

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
If you have two rotary-wing aircraft and one has three or four times as much disc loading as the other aircraft (but everything else is the same), is their autorotation performance fundamentally different?

If the answer is "Go read the FAA guide on helicopters", feel free to tell me that ;)
Almost a cut-and-paste from the FAA guide…When a helicopter is being maneuvered, its disk loading changes. The higher the loading, the more power needed to maintain rotor speed. A low disk loading is a direct indicator of high lift thrust efficiency. Increasing the weight of a helicopter increases disk loading. For a given weight, a helicopter with shorter rotors will have higher disk loading, and will require more engine power to hover. A low disk loading improves autorotation performance.

But…in an autorotation it is all about the best vertical descent rate (typically, I think, close to the Vy, rate of climb, for the craft). On the Griz-O-Copter, anssuming average weight and standard day weather, the descent rate is a very comfortable 60 MPH IAS (about 1800 fpm). However, if you lower the nose and increase the forward IAS to 100MPH (just above Vne power off), the vertical descent rate almost double to 3300 fpm. At that rate the rotor RPM is struggling to even touch the lower portion of the green arc resulting in an unusually fast and perhaps an uncontrollable vertical descent rate - in short you’ll have no energy at the bottom to slow down. There is a fun, and terrifying, training routine where you enter an auto at about 1000 feet and drop at 100MPH…about half way down you yank the nose back until it is nearly pointing straight up and slow to 20MPH and then lower the nose to hit 60 MPH and head on in!
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
Another answer is that, roughly, lower loading corresponds with what we bird whirlers call a "high-inertia" rotor. A classic high-inertia head can be found on the recently retired TH-57. An H-60 is medium-to-low. An H-72 is on the lower side (I think). "Inertia" here is really referring to the balance of aerodynamic and inertial forces acting on the rotor disc during an auto. High inertia means there's a lot of rotational energy in the rotor head compared to the thrust it's producing.

Autorotation performance is more complicated than just this inertia thing, but generally speaking: high inertia provides a lot of wiggle room for technique in the descent and flare and more margin for cushioning the landing. There's a reason we're not allowed to practice full autos in the H-60 or H-72, and it's not just the unit cost.

Of course, we don't design aircraft specifically for great auto-performance. We'd rather design for efficiency and go with either highly reliable or multiple engines to reduce the likelihood of autorotation. Just like a C-172 v. an F/A-18, higher loading correlates with higher maneuverability.
 

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
@mad dog - I found your perfect post retirement gig. Since you hold a DC-9 Type Rating :)

This DC-9 recently became airworthy after years of sitting idle. Will be used for mass skydive ops!

GNJfQTJb0AAqerS
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Another answer is that, roughly, lower loading corresponds with what we bird whirlers call a "high-inertia" rotor. A classic high-inertia head can be found on the recently retired TH-57. An H-60 is medium-to-low. An H-72 is on the lower side (I think). "Inertia" here is really referring to the balance of aerodynamic and inertial forces acting on the rotor disc during an auto. High inertia means there's a lot of rotational energy in the rotor head compared to the thrust it's producing.

Autorotation performance is more complicated than just this inertia thing, but generally speaking: high inertia provides a lot of wiggle room for technique in the descent and flare and more margin for cushioning the landing. There's a reason we're not allowed to practice full autos in the H-60 or H-72, and it's not just the unit cost.

Of course, we don't design aircraft specifically for great auto-performance. We'd rather design for efficiency and go with either highly reliable or multiple engines to reduce the likelihood of autorotation. Just like a C-172 v. an F/A-18, higher loading correlates with higher maneuverability.
Need some retro-propulsion like the Blue Origins capsule. A little blast will do ya'

1715356346635.gif
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
If there's a problem with an FAA medical consider a light sport certificate. It only requires a driver's license as medical certification. Down the road after initial flight training to LSA, you can upgrade to a third class medical or basic Med which will allow you full privileges of a private pilot's license.
A mild tangent here: Has anyone had any trouble with their VA disability rating hindering their ability to get a medical rating from the FAA? I have a few friends who were recently denied a medical rating due to stuff in their VA file. I'm not too sure on the particulars but it's got me worried whether I'll have an uphill battle to climb with the FAA when I start back up with getting my PPL.

MARSOC dudes get motor-paragliders.

WHAT % GET PARAGLIDERS?

paragliding-marine.jpg
42%, but the real question is what warfare device do their get? Is it time to bring these bad boys back?
Navyballoonbadge.jpg
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
A mild tangent here: Has anyone had any trouble with their VA disability rating hindering their ability to get a medical rating from the FAA? I have a few friends who were recently denied a medical rating due to stuff in their VA file. I'm not too sure on the particulars but it's got me worried whether I'll have an uphill battle to climb with the FAA when I start back up with getting my PPL.
When it comes to the FAA be honest, but know their rules. They will eventually review your VA record. If you just want to chase clouds like me, get your 3rd class and then drop to Basic Med. If you are looking for a profession and have some damage then hire a medical company to walk your medical through the FAA system.
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
When it comes to the FAA be honest, but know their rules. They will eventually review your VA record. If you just want to chase clouds like me, get your 3rd class and then drop to Basic Med. If you are looking for a profession and have some damage then hire a medical company to walk your medical through the FAA system.
Yeah, I'm only looking to get my PPL and instrument rating. I think one of my friends was trying to get her CFI rating. Not looking to lie to anyone (Hell, I didn't even lie to Navy and it cost me my flight slot) but wanted to be sure I know what I'm walking into. Still waiting on the VA to give me their decision on my claim but I'm using VA healthcare at the moment and they've been helping fix some of the stuff the Navy broke. I appreciate the advice, gents.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Only go to an AME that airline pilots go to! Problem solved.. Never go to another for convenience, to save a buck or to get an appointment quicker! Not all AMEs are the same!

Just be careful with that. There are some docs that don't want to be bothered doing the extra paperwork required for a reasonable waiver and will just mark down something as a discrepancy (think heart stuff) that can't be undone after the fact.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Just be careful with that. There are some docs that don't want to be bothered doing the extra paperwork required for a reasonable waiver and will just mark down something as a discrepancy (think heart stuff) that can't be undone after the fact.
Airline guys/gals don’t go to them either.

We had one of those guys here that when he went thru a divorce and went whack when his daughter picked Mom and not him. His practice nearly folded as all the FedEx pilots bailed.. I have never been back and the only ones still going there (rolling the dice) go there because of location and convince instead of driving an hour up near Covington, TN
 

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Only go to an AME that airline pilots go to! Problem solved.. Never go to another for convenience, to save a buck or to get an appointment quicker! Not all AMEs are the same!
My PPL journey is off to an inauspicious start, as it looks like I'll needs a HIMS AME. Sigh...
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I have never been back and the only ones still going there (rolling the dice) go there because of location and convince

I think that's a big part of it. A friend and former co-worker was finishing up his King Air training at a facility where the sim instructors recommended a certain guy in the town the facility was at. Since he was about to deploy for a contracting gig and would expire, he went to the recommended guy. Unfortunately he had a heart murmur he didn't know about (and apparently the Navy never cared about or mentioned) and got screwed.

I'm not arguing your advice as to who the majority of airline pilots go to is probably a good pick. I'm just saying know your source (which I think you're saying, as well).
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
My PPL journey is off to an inauspicious start, as it looks like I'll needs a HIMS AME. Sigh...
Go to Pilot Medical Solutions. For a fee they will evaluate you, tell you to do Thing A and take Test B and then walk your medical through Oklahoma City. It costs some cash but you know what is coming.
 
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