Racism in the Military

[RoarkJr.]

I'll preface this by saying that American is American is American. The more we stray from that mindset the more problems we're going to have. This country and its opportunities are no more the Chinese-American's than the African-American's than the Italian and Polish-American's, etc.

I’m guessing you don’t have any black friends, and if you do you’ve probably never had a really deep and honest conversation about their experiences. You probably also didn’t see the O-6 who was fired for live streaming his racist rants-a man who has been signing FITREPS, ranking JOs and deciding fates and orders etc.

There have only been a few times, as far as I was made aware of, that accusations of racism occurred in commands I was in. In all of those cases the accusers had attitude and performance issues that were well known. I'm aware of one who left, one was dropped due to legal issues, and nothing came of the other. I am not saying racism never happens. This was my experience.

My problem is that the rhetoric is inciting people to commit and justify violence. Again, this is an idea based in Marxism. As someone who has studied in this area, as well as some History and Peterson's work on the atrocities committed in the 20th century under the same banner, it has me concerned.
It's unfortunate about the O-6, but if you grew up poor you'd know that racism and prejudice know no single skin color. If I told you the extent of the racism I experienced as a Polish-American, you probably wouldn't believe me.

George Floyd video was spread on YouTube and social media. Anyone watching that video should’ve been as outraged as I was...I couldn’t imagine the anger someone in that community felt. To blame this current situation in the media is ridiculous. This video created almost a primal -visceral response that spread virally like wildfire-without the media’s help.

I could barely finish the video, it was horrible. I'm referencing the systemic racism rhetoric, not police brutality toward all Americans.
The data does NOT show that white officers kill more POC than whites, it's actually the opposite, according to a peer-reviewed NBER study that NPR published an article on last year.
Concern about use of police force is legitimate and by all appearances the world is and has been behind police reform.

who is doing the looting? I’ve seen a bunch of white kids and boogs in the mix with blacks too... Most black community members at the grassroots level are pissed that this is happening. Pretty ignorant statement.

I never said one race was doing any more looting than another. I'm aware it's a mixed bag. I was being purposely facetious to show how shallow the logic is that your average rioting-supporter uses to justify their sanction of violence and perpetuation of dangerous rhetoric. The more unrest, more retail burned, more people afraid to get outside due to COVID, the more people will order from Amazon, watch Netflix and Youtube. That was my point there.

this isn’t a “share on Facebook” rage fad. People are fucking tired of watching cops murder unarmed citizens. People are finally talking to their neighbors about race instead of it just being buried underneath, never spoken about.

I think outrage over police violence is legitimate. But where were the protesters when Daniel Shaver was murdered by police? What about Tony Timpa? The same if not worse than Floyd, but they were not POC (and my point is that they don't fit the media narrative) so most people haven't even heard of them. The outrage is fulfilling a need for people to signal virtue, without a doubt IMO. There are deep ideological and psychological reasons for this. I recommend watching/reading Peterson for the why/how on that.

people don’t even have equality of opportunity. A black family in abject poverty does not have the same opportunities as you do.

I grew up in poverty so I understand what happens to most people there better than most. The only reason I got out was due to a young black man who started a job at the same restaurant I worked at. He started working out with me and got me in shape. That gave me confidence to join the military. Would not be here if he hadn't done that.

I recently had a recruiter told me he would have to turn away white candidates because they didn't need them. In both of those cases being white did not help.

I’m extremely disappointed in this comment. You have a lot of growing to do, especially if you’re leading any of our sailors.
If you’re not in the military, then please don’t join until you get some life experience and get out of your bubble.

Many Americans of all races/backgrounds feel the same way I do, and feel frustrated in proportion when we're called ignorant and backward for not subscribing to outrage culture.

 

[robav8r]

I’m honestly curious if you think your average 18 year old black man has the same opportunity as your average white 18 year old?

Within the DoD, yes. Are there issues? Yes. But there is plenty of opportunity if you're willing to seek it out and fight for it.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

Within the DoD, yes. Are there issues? Yes. But there is plenty of opportunity if you're willing to seek it out and fight for it.

Within the DOD, not everywhere else.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Let’s be clear, though: Not everyone has the exact same opportunity as everyone else. This country does not promise you equal opportunity, nor has it ever promised to provide it. This country promises equal protection under the law, which is a very different thing (and still isn't perfect).

Two great examples of not being guaranteed equal opportunity in life:

1. Genetics, as anyone who has gotten the NAMI whammy for vision or anthropomorphic standards can tell you.
2. Geography, as anyone whose family/community has suffered in a hurricane, tornado, volcano, flood, or earthquake can tell you.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

Let’s be clear, though: Not everyone has the exact same opportunity as everyone else. This country does not promise you equal opportunity, nor has it ever promised to provide it. This country promises equal protection under the law, which is a very different thing (and still isn't perfect).

Two great examples of not being guaranteed equal opportunity in life:

1. Genetics, as anyone who has gotten the NAMI whammy for vision or anthropomorphic standards can tell you.
2. Geography, as anyone whose family/community has suffered in a hurricane, tornado, volcano, or earthquake can tell you.

1. Some people don’t even get the opportunity to get measured for anthropology standards

 

[Hair Warrior]

1. Some people don’t even get the opportunity to get measured for anthropology standards

You are absolutely right. And some people get a terminal illness as a child. It sucks. Life is not fair, nor will it ever be completely fair, despite any government attempts at intervention.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

You are absolutely right. And some people get a terminal illness as a child. It sucks. Life is not fair, nor will it ever be completely fair, despite any government attempts at intervention.

People want to be treated IAW their 14th amendment rights that’s really what it boils down to.

 

[Hair Warrior]

People want to be treated IAW their 14th amendment rights that’s really what it boils down to.

And they absolutely should be. That's equal protection.

But saying that one school district being less affluent than another school district on the other side of the state, and therefore it's unfair, is discounting the geography and economic factors, and doesn't pertain to the 14th Amendment.

 

[Pags]

And they absolutely should be. That's equal protection.

But saying that one school district being less affluent than another school district on the other side of the state, and therefore it's unfair, is discounting the geography and economic factors, and doesn't pertain to the 14th Amendment.

But to shrug your shoulders at that is laziness. Should an effort be made to provide equal resources at a federal, state, and local level? Should we look at why certain school districts are better off than others and try to ensure that everyone is getting a good education? There are all sorts of ugly truths behind why there is so much inequity in our country. I'd be willing to believe that many to most people on this board were not involved in the decisions that made the world the way it is and thus can say "it's not my fault." But I'd also offer that we should try and make things better than we found them.

Here's a decent article on how much harder life is for African Americans in comparison to white Americans:

What A 1968 Report Tells Us About The Persistence Of Racial Inequality

Despite political and social progress, African Americans still lag far behind economically.

www.npr.org

Put frankly, it's pretty apparent to me that the game has been purposefully rigged against African Americans and I think that's pretty messed up.

To the original question about racism in the military I would offer that the rules of the game are certainly more fair within the Military. There are still active and passive racists but it's at the individual level as opposed to a systemic.

 

[wink]

Put frankly, it's pretty apparent to me that the game has been purposefully rigged against African Americans and I think that's pretty messed up.

Who is currently purposely rigging the game against blacks? Let's just get after them. Has to be a large omnipotent organization. Disband that group. Jail the members violating fellow American's constitutional rights. Call them out for what they are. Simple.

 

[Hair Warrior]

But to shrug your shoulders at that is laziness. Should an effort be made to provide equal resources at a federal, state, and local level? Should we look at why certain school districts are better off than others and try to ensure that everyone is getting a good education? There are all sorts of ugly truths behind why there is so much inequity in our country. I'd be willing to believe that many to most people on this board were not involved in the decisions that made the world the way it is and thus can say "it's not my fault." But I'd also offer that we should try and make things better than we found them.

Here's a decent article on how much harder life is for African Americans in comparison to white Americans:

What A 1968 Report Tells Us About The Persistence Of Racial Inequality

Despite political and social progress, African Americans still lag far behind economically.

www.npr.org

Put frankly, it's pretty apparent to me that the game has been purposefully rigged against African Americans and I think that's pretty messed up.

To the original question about racism in the military I would offer that the rules of the game are certainly more fair within the Military. There are still active and passive racists but it's at the individual level as opposed to a systemic.

There is a phenomena in statistics called Simpson's paradox. Suppose this example:

Two high schools are in the same city. Alpha HS is downtown, and Bravo HS is in the suburbs. Alpha HS has relatively more minority students and a lower median household income than Bravo HS.

The city's school board wants to improve education for all students. They undertake a new SAT test initiative. Both schools received the same funding. Both schools have the same number of students. A year later, the results of the initiative are published:

SAT score average	2019​	2020​	Change
Alpha HS	1200​	1180​	-20​
Bravo HS	1200​	1208​	8​

Is it unfair? Looks pretty unfair! Alpha HS saw a drop in SAT scores, while Bravo saw a slight increase.

Some parents might jump on the school board and administrators, and claim that this reflects a bias or unfairness. The school board and administrators, though, are just as perplexed as the parents. In fact, they tried harder in Alpha HS, and sent Alpha HS the better teachers, in order to try to balance the education system. But somehow it backfired... or did it?

Click here to find out, when we continue with part 2 of "How to lie with statistics"

Spoiler: "How to lie with statistics"

The answer is actually more complicated. In fact, both schools improved their SAT scores, and both schools improved the educational prospects for their students. Here is the true underlying data:

Alpha:

SAT score averages for Alpha HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Alpha, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Alpha, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	1,000	1150​	30​
Alpha, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	700	1100​	30​
Alpha, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	2,700	1180​	-20.37​

Bravo:

SAT score averages for Bravo HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Bravo, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Bravo, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	600	1150​	30​
Bravo, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	200	1100​	30​
Bravo, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	1,800	1208​	8.33​

Both schools started off with the exact same student body size, GPA distribution, and SAT scores. Every student group increased their SAT scores by the same amount.

But the difference was that Alpha HS succeeded at encouraging more of its student population to take the SAT who hadn't considered taking it. Bravo HS also increased participation, but not as widely as Alpha.

With more students taking the SAT, it dropped Alpha's overall average down, even though each subgroup increased its score for itself.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

There is a phenomena in statistics called Simpson's paradox. Suppose this example:

Two high schools are in the same city. Alpha HS is downtown, and Bravo HS is in the suburbs. Alpha HS has relatively more minority students and a lower median household income than Bravo HS.

The city's school board wants to improve education for all students. They undertake a new SAT test initiative. Both schools received the same funding. Both schools have the same number of students. A year later, the results of the initiative are published:

SAT score average	2019​	2020​	Change
Alpha HS	1200​	1180​	-20​
Bravo HS	1200​	1208​	8​

Is it unfair? Looks pretty unfair! Alpha HS saw a drop in SAT scores, while Bravo saw a slight increase.

Some parents might jump on the school board and administrators, and claim that this reflects a bias or unfairness. The school board and administrators, though, are just as perplexed as the parents. In fact, they tried harder in Alpha HS, and sent Alpha HS the better teachers, in order to try to balance the education system. But somehow it backfired... or did it?

Click here to find out, when we continue with part 2 of "How to lie with statistics"

Spoiler: "How to lie with statistics"

The answer is actually more complicated. In fact, both schools improved their SAT scores, and both schools improved the educational prospects for their students. Here is the true underlying data:

Alpha:

SAT score averages for Alpha HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Alpha, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Alpha, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	1,000	1150​	30​
Alpha, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	700	1100​	30​
Alpha, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	2,700	1180​	-20.37​

Bravo:

SAT score averages for Bravo HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Bravo, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Bravo, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	600	1150​	30​
Bravo, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	200	1100​	30​
Bravo, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	1,800	1208​	8.33​

Both schools started off with the exact same student body size, GPA distribution, and SAT scores. Every student group increased their SAT scores by the same amount.

But the difference was that Alpha HS succeeded at encouraging more of its student population to take the SAT who hadn't considered taking it. Bravo HS also increased participation, but not as widely as Alpha.

With more students taking the SAT, it dropped Alpha's overall average down, even though each subgroup increased its score for itself.

I expected the answer to unequal outcomes to be eliminating the SAT. And ACT. Like California

 

[Pags]

There is a phenomena in statistics called Simpson's paradox. Suppose this example:

Two high schools are in the same city. Alpha HS is downtown, and Bravo HS is in the suburbs. Alpha HS has relatively more minority students and a lower median household income than Bravo HS.

The city's school board wants to improve education for all students. They undertake a new SAT test initiative. Both schools received the same funding. Both schools have the same number of students. A year later, the results of the initiative are published:

SAT score average	2019​	2020​	Change
Alpha HS	1200​	1180​	-20​
Bravo HS	1200​	1208​	8​

Is it unfair? Looks pretty unfair! Alpha HS saw a drop in SAT scores, while Bravo saw a slight increase.

Some parents might jump on the school board and administrators, and claim that this reflects a bias or unfairness. The school board and administrators, though, are just as perplexed as the parents. In fact, they tried harder in Alpha HS, and sent Alpha HS the better teachers, in order to try to balance the education system. But somehow it backfired... or did it?

Click here to find out, when we continue with part 2 of "How to lie with statistics"

Spoiler: "How to lie with statistics"

The answer is actually more complicated. In fact, both schools improved their SAT scores, and both schools improved the educational prospects for their students. Here is the true underlying data:

Alpha:

SAT score averages for Alpha HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Alpha, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Alpha, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	1,000	1150​	30​
Alpha, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	700	1100​	30​
Alpha, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	2,700	1180​	-20.37​

Bravo:

SAT score averages for Bravo HS	Total students in group at this HS	Number who took SAT in 2019	Group average SAT score in 2019	Number who took SAT in 2020	Group average SAT score in 2020	Change in group average SAT score
Bravo, students with 3.0 or higher GPA	1,100	1,000	1253​	1,000	1265​	12​
Bravo, students with 2.0-2.99 GPA	1,200	500	1120​	600	1150​	30​
Bravo, students below 2.0 GPA	800	100	1070​	200	1100​	30​
Bravo, total across groups	3,100	1,600	1200​	1,800	1208​	8.33​

Both schools started off with the exact same student body size, GPA distribution, and SAT scores. Every student group increased their SAT scores by the same amount.

But the difference was that Alpha HS succeeded at encouraging more of its student population to take the SAT who hadn't considered taking it. Bravo HS also increased participation, but not as widely as Alpha.

With more students taking the SAT, it dropped Alpha's overall average down, even though each subgroup increased its score for itself.

Not sure what this has to do with attempting to level the playing field. This is an interesting review of two schools performance but I've seen nothing as to whether they've been resourced appropriately and equitably. If they've been resourced equitably and they have disparate results then you can focus on discussing why the results are different due to methodologies, etc and whether one school should change.

 

[Flash]

Was he a bubblehead? Rig for dive...

He was a SuppO.

 

[Brett327]

Who is currently purposely rigging the game against blacks? Let's just get after them. Has to be a large omnipotent organization. Disband that group. Jail the members violating fellow American's constitutional rights. Call them out for what they are. Simple.

The police, for starters, and that is precisely what is being seriously discussed for the first time in this country. Kinda walked right into that one, didn't you, Wink? Proceed with your circling of the wagons/pearl clutching diatribe. It falls on unsympathetic ears.