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PT-17 ground loop at DCA this am.

FlyinRock

FlyinRock

Registered User
Screwed up. The PT 17 is not that hard to fly. No tail dragger is, if you have educated feet, and most modern pilots don't. Using brakes to save a poor pilot technique only makes the problem worse. I have been preaching this for 40 years. But what the hell, 9000 hours of tailwheel time I am jaded.
 
Pugs

Pugs

Back from the range
None
HackerF15E said:
Bro-level discussion in the warbird community is saying that the passenger -- the one who is holding the camera in the front cockpit -- was the one on the brakes when the airplane touched down.

Ouch.
Click to expand...

I understood rudders to be pretty important in a taildragger and would have thought the PIC would have felt someone else's feet on them (or are the brakes on the pedal distinct enough that you don't have to put presure on the rudders like I have in the light plane flying I've done) but it makes as much sense as anything else.
 
ryan1234

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
The stearman's front brakes would feel like a foot rest for a passenger who doesn't know anything - which happens to be heel brakes. Usually the first instruction that you would tell a passenger in a tailwheel (or any other aircraft with dual controls) is feet on the floor - don't touch nothin'
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Originally the story was 'he tapped the brakes' ... then the front-seat clown did it ... then the devil did it ... and then today, I heard a phonecon interview w/ the pilot, himself ... he now sez: 'something happened' ...

No shit. :)
 
FlyinRock

FlyinRock

Registered User
Looking at the video again, it went upside down so fast that it had to be more than just brakes locked. Like the PIC says, "something happened" and I call it pilot error. Even with brakes locked if he touched down smoothly the tires would have been more likely to slide and burn off a hundred landings before it went upside down. If he had forward stick at the same time ala "nail it to the runway" chances are much better that it could have been the extra to cause the momentum shift forward and BAM.
Good example was a pilot I flew with in Colorado years ago. Crop duster with thousands of hours in Stearmans. He wanted to show me some fields to spray using our little Bellanca Scout (that we used for training) and he made some serious pilotage errors applicable to the Scout. When we got back to his 4K dirt strip, he was frustrated at his basic flying errors and when we touched down, we bounced. Before I could say "DON"T", he DID and shoved the stick forward sticking the prop about 4" into the hard dirt causing it to bend and set up a hard vibration. It was a not uncommon technique for Stearmans and many other tailwheel aircraft. The problem is how much forward stick to use and carefully it is applied.
No matter, the guy screwed up just like the DCA guy did. BTW, are there any other pilots on the forum who have more than a few hours in the SJB (C-45, D-18, Twin Beech)?
Always enjoyed flying them and thought they were a pussy cat like the R4D/DC3.
 
ryan1234

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
FlyinRock said:
When we got back to his 4K dirt strip, he was frustrated at his basic flying errors and when we touched down, we bounced. Before I could say "DON"T", he DID and shoved the stick forward sticking the prop about 4" into the hard dirt causing it to bend and set up a hard vibration. It was a not uncommon technique for Stearmans and many other tailwheel aircraft. The problem is how much forward stick to use and carefully it is applied.
Click to expand...

Sounds a little like the Pitts.... it's an honest airplane, it'll do everything you tell it to...even if you don't mean to... which is the problem for a lot of guys.

Seems like most trainers will let you get away with sloppy flying without even knowing about it...
 
Flying Toaster

Flying Toaster

Well-Known Member
None
FlyinRock said:
Good example was a pilot I flew with in Colorado years ago. Crop duster with thousands of hours in Stearmans. He wanted to show me some fields to spray using our little Bellanca Scout (that we used for training) and he made some serious pilotage errors applicable to the Scout. When we got back to his 4K dirt strip, he was frustrated at his basic flying errors and when we touched down, we bounced. Before I could say "DON"T", he DID and shoved the stick forward sticking the prop about 4" into the hard dirt causing it to bend and set up a hard vibration. It was a not uncommon technique for Stearmans and many other tailwheel aircraft. The problem is how much forward stick to use and carefully it is applied.
No matter, the guy screwed up just like the DCA guy did. BTW, are there any other pilots on the forum who have more than a few hours in the SJB (C-45, D-18, Twin Beech)?
Always enjoyed flying them and thought they were a pussy cat like the R4D/DC3.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the story, helps put into perspective why my instructor (flying a Citabria) emphatically stresses not pumping the stick or giving it much forward pressure on landing.
 
Stearmann4

Stearmann4

I'm here for the Jeeehawd!
None
Flying Toaster said:
Thanks for the story, helps put into perspective why my instructor (flying a Citabria) emphatically stresses not pumping the stick or giving it much forward pressure on landing.
Click to expand...

Spring gear on a Citabria means certain peril if you bounce and try to "pin" it to save the landing. You can sometimes get away with it in taildraggers with bungee or oleo gear and higher deck angles (Stearmans, PT-19s, bigger tire-Cubs, etc).

The Citabria squats so low that the best technique if the student can keep it straight, is to just keep the stick in his/her lap and ride it out if you're too far in to the landing (heading towards the grass) to save it or go-around.

The Stearman has massive rudder pedals just about like a T-6, which makes them convenient foot rests. You guys might recognize the particular incident stearman as the aircraft owned by CDR "Rabb" on JAG.

There was a lot of runway, but also a lot of distractions for the pilot. Compressed timeline, 8-ship formation, busy airspace, request to expedite landing, failure to properly brief the dumba** reporter in the front doing who-knows-what (speculation). All of which most likely took the pilot attention away from the task at hand. Lack of CRM even bites a 67-year old airplane in the a**.

Good thing is that the plane will probably be flying again in 6 months.

MR-
 
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