Promotion Rates as a Naval Aviator

[RedFive]

People say that (one of the reasons) nobody goes to the club anymore because security is waiting to pounce on you.

Like one dude said that.

I don't dispute things have changed, but I don't think we fully understand why. The club was pretty rocking when I was a JO. I'm not aware of any policy changes from Big Navy that directly contributed to that change.

Isn't it obvious? Funding, for one. If you drive by the old O-club on North Island, it's pretty sad. There are ancient parking spots facing the approach end of the runway right in front of the club with very faded paint representing each squadron. Presumably where CO's would park their cars before entering the club. Dunno. All I know is that everytime I see it, it's saddening. And second, I'll bet money it's way harder to invite unescorted civilians to drink in our base bar with today's ATFP levels than it was before 9/11. You'll not hear me complain at all about our security measures, it's just a statement of fact. Whatever it is that you and @ATIS experienced is no longer in existence.

I'll ask you (and the group) what you think contributed. I will say this - when people say "the Navy ain't what it used to be," they're usually talking about a period that they themselves never experienced first hand - like how it was in the 70s. That's just a strange perspective to hold.

No, you're way off. All I have do to is hear my CO (someone like you) tell me "The club was pretty rocking when I was a JO. I'm not aware of any policy changes from Big Navy that directly contributed to that change." "I don't dispute things have changed, but I don't think we fully understand why."

In other words, it was super awesome when I was a JO, we don't know wtf happened and nobody's going to bother fixing it. But...Millennials. Must be their (our) fault. That's the same logic that leads people to say Millennials are fucked up because they got participation trophies. No. No, they're (we're) fucked up because the parents decided to treat them like that. Why does everyone act like children (or in this case, Millennial JOs) decided to be entitled when really the parents (Senior Leadership) made poor decisions and set the example?

But if you want to hear a JO bitch about something that has changed during their time in the Navy, I'll give you one. OCS. OCS was fucking hard ten years ago. I've heard AOCS was even harder. In any case, OCS is a shell of what it used to be. Why? Because senior leadership is weak.

We don't have weak JO's because they're Millennials. We have weak JO's because senior leadership failed. We have shitty O-Clubs because senior leadership failed. And we have a retention problem because...yup...senior leadership failed.

Don't blame ME or JOPA because we "party differently." That's bullshit, sir. Someone, somewhere, between your JO experience and mine dropped the ball. I'm sorry for getting a little heated, and but it's really not JOPA's fault.

 

[Python]

I don't dispute things have changed, but I don't think we fully understand why. The club was pretty rocking when I was a JO. I'm not aware of any policy changes from Big Navy that directly contributed to that change. Maybe people's OPTEMPO has been higher and they just wanted to go home to be with family. Maybe Millennials socialize and party differently than Gen-Xers. Maybe the Navy's emphasis on deglamorizing alcohol has some effect, but I didn't see that where I was in Whidbey.

I'll ask you (and the group) what you think contributed. I will say this - when people say "the Navy ain't what it used to be," they're usually talking about a period that they themselves never experienced first hand - like how it was in the 70s. That's just a strange perspective to hold.

I was born in 1987. Most definitions of millennials mean I fall in the heart of the demographic along with JOs of my generation. I understand a number of buzzfeed and huff post studies say that we do things differently than previous generations. And some of those things are true. I can assure you that we signed on the dotted line we did so for many reasons and carried many assumptions. One would be that O clubs would be rocking, not that we would be partying by drinking wine and watching Netflix. Those who signed on to be naval aviators still wanted that tradition so please don’t lump this into a millennial thing. I’m sure the O Club was rocking when you were a JO, but the stories I’ve always heard were more than what you were describing. They were like what ATIS was describing: the best bar in town, civilian girls waiting in line to get in, shenanigans afoot way bigger than a crazy game of beer die. Again, NOT longing for the days of drunk driving. Longing for the days of naval aviation tradition that I heard about from O-6+ leadership. The kind I heard about from long retired sim instructors. The kind that ATIS describes on the previous page. The Club ain’t what it used to be. Put it in the why I’m getting out thread under the culture column.

Disclaimer: in no way am I advocating for anything nefarious. I’m sure *some* things *some* time got out of control back in the day. I speak for the JOPA when I say we don’t condone when those lines are crossed, nor do we desire for those things to come back.

 

[Brett327]

Don't blame ME or JOPA because we "party differently." That's bullshit, sir. Someone, somewhere, between your JO experience and mine dropped the ball. I'm sorry for getting a little heated, and but it's really not JOPA's fault.

I'm not blaming anyone, so please don't let that be your impression. It's a complex issue with a variety of possible causes. I just want to understand what some of the factors could be. Who dropped the ball and how? Be specific.

Setting aside "the good old days" for a moment. FWIW, our club in Whidbey didn't bring in local chicks (you wouldn't have wanted them there anyway) and didn't get crazy out of hand, but everyone was there on a Friday night having a good time. Something changed over time, membership dwindled, resources weren't there and people lost interest in partying there. Most of my COs, and most of my contemporaries as a CO, were strong supporters of the club. People toss out "oh, it's bad leadership" in some generic way, but other than the occasional teetotaler or mando-fun enforcer, what specifically do some of you attribute to leadership?

I'm willing to examine leadership as a potential factor. I think it's fair that some of you meet me halfway in accepting the possibility that generational differences could play a part. Again, we're not assigning blame, but it is a fascinating aspect of human and organizational psychology worth understanding.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

A line of civilian women waiting to get into a club to meet up with a bunch aviators getting shitfaced is the worst nightmare for a bunch of CO’s looking to make it through their command tours without appearing in Navy Times.

Hell the official policy of the Marine Corps is that a woman who has ingested alcohol is incapable of giving consent.

 

[Brett327]

Hell the official policy of the Marine Corps is that a woman who has ingested alcohol is incapable of giving consent.

That is also the law in the state of CA.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

That is also the law in the state of CA.

Which is lunacy

 

[Python]

I'm not blaming anyone, so please don't let that be your impression. It's a complex issue with a variety of possible causes. I just want to understand what some of the factors could be. Who dropped the ball and how? Be specific.

Setting aside "the good old days" for a moment. FWIW, our club in Whidbey didn't bring in local chicks (you wouldn't have wanted them there anyway) and didn't get crazy out of hand, but everyone was there on a Friday night having a good time. Something changed over time, membership dwindled, resources weren't there and people lost interest in partying there. Most of my COs, and most of my contemporaries as a CO, were strong supporters of the club. People toss out "oh, it's bad leadership" in some generic way, but other than the occasional teetotaler or mando-fun enforcer, what specifically do some of you attribute to leadership?

I'm willing to examine leadership as a potential factor. I think it's fair that some of you meet me halfway in accepting the possibility that generational differences could play a part. Again, we're not assigning blame, but it is a fascinating aspect of human and organizational psychology worth understanding.

My opinion (and I’m sure the opinion of some others) is that the O Clubs degrading is one symptom of a general trend toward more political correctness in the Navy along with an increasing trend of risk aversion at the O-5+ level.

 

[Brett327]

Which is lunacy

On that, we can agree. An interesting scenario was being discussed on a podcast I was listening to. According to the law, in theory, a married couple who has sex after each enjoying a glass of wine, could both be charged with statutory rape... of each other.

 

[Brett327]

My opinion (and I’m sure the opinion of some others) is that the O Clubs degrading is one symptom of a general trend toward more political correctness in the Navy along with an increasing trend of risk aversion at the O-5+ level.

Interesting. How is drinking with your squadronmates at the club considered a PC issue? I will grant you some degree of O5 angst, but short of actively discouraging people from the club, how does that work exactly? Are some of you seeing your COs discourage club use, or imply some kind of professional/reputational consequence from it?

 

[Python]

Interesting. How is drinking with your squadronmates at the club considered a PC issue? I will grant you some degree of O5 angst, but short of actively discouraging people from the club, how does that work exactly? Are some of you seeing your COs discourage club use, or imply some kind of professional/reputational consequence from it?

It’s not “drinking with squadronmates” that’s discouraged. That’s not even what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Clubs not being what ATIS described two pages ago. That decline is what I’m saying would be explained by PC culture and risk aversion. Once clubs became shells of their former selves, many guys just said screw it, I’ll go out in town. And to clarify, there are some good times at the club to be had once in a while and they do get *some* use (not including the constant use at Fallon). Now that things have become combined clubs, there’s even less of a point.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

On that, we can agree. An interesting scenario was being discussed on a podcast I was listening to. According to the law, in theory, a married couple who has sex after each enjoying a glass of wine, could both be charged with statutory rape... of each other.

Yes but of course in practice men can’t be raped by women. To threadjack a threadjack, that’s one of the great hypocrisy’s of feminists. Women are equal to men sexually, and should be free to screw whoever they want without being shamed as a slut, just as men generally aren’t shamed for their conquests. Yet, if a man and a woman both get blacked out and have consensual sex, only the woman can claim rape in the morning. Because she has been harmed or devalued in some way by having sex. Not the man, though.

 

[Brett327]

It’s not “drinking with squadronmates” that’s discouraged. That’s not even what I’m talking about. I’m talking about Clubs not being what ATIS described two pages ago. That decline is what I’m saying would be explained by PC culture and risk aversion. Once clubs became shells of their former selves, many guys just said screw it, I’ll go out in town. And to clarify, there are some good times at the club to be had once in a while and they do get *some* use (not including the constant use at Fallon). Now that things have become combined clubs, there’s even less of a point.

Granted, but I'm not even talking about the change since what ATIS described. I'm talking about the change in the last 10-15 years. Since you brought up Fallon, people go there for three reasons. First, they're on det and don't have a spouse or family to attend to, and second is the convenience of being next to where you sleep, and third people want to hang with Airwing bubbas they just flew with. If the Navy is implicitly discouraging people from partying at the club due to PC or oddball COs, it certainly isn't in effect at AWF. That doesn't square with the "pressure from leadership" argument in my mind.

 

[Python]

Granted, but I'm not even talking about the change since what ATIS described. I'm talking about the change in the last 10-15 years. Since you brought up Fallon, people go there for three reasons. First, they're on det and don't have a spouse or family to attend to, and second is the convenience of being next to where you sleep, and third people want to hang with Airwing bubbas they just flew with. If the Navy is implicitly discouraging people from partying at the club due to PC or oddball COs, it certainly isn't in effect at AWF. That doesn't square with the "pressure from leadership" argument in my mind.

That was somebody else’s argument, not mine. I never mentioned “pressure from leadership”. I mentioned a PC culture and risk aversion leading to an atmosphere to where the club just isn’t a thing anymore. Somebody else can chime in on the pressure argument. For me, I think if you read all my posts in this thread back to back, you’ll get a sound picture of the JO perspective on this situation, particularly why they say the navy ain’t what it used to be (which I understand is an argument you may have tangentially departed).

 

[Brett327]

That was somebody else’s argument, not mine.

Right, but this is a group discussion, even if I’m replying to your post. That said, why isn’t PC culture and risk aversion a factor in Fallon?

 

[cfam]

I'm not blaming anyone, so please don't let that be your impression. It's a complex issue with a variety of possible causes. I just want to understand what some of the factors could be. Who dropped the ball and how? Be specific.

Setting aside "the good old days" for a moment. FWIW, our club in Whidbey didn't bring in local chicks (you wouldn't have wanted them there anyway) and didn't get crazy out of hand, but everyone was there on a Friday night having a good time. Something changed over time, membership dwindled, resources weren't there and people lost interest in partying there. Most of my COs, and most of my contemporaries as a CO, were strong supporters of the club. People toss out "oh, it's bad leadership" in some generic way, but other than the occasional teetotaler or mando-fun enforcer, what specifically do some of you attribute to leadership?

I'm willing to examine leadership as a potential factor. I think it's fair that some of you meet me halfway in accepting the possibility that generational differences could play a part. Again, we're not assigning blame, but it is a fascinating aspect of human and organizational psychology worth understanding.

Setting aside the lines of civilian chicks at the door, I think we can also blame the way the clubs are managed. I understand that no one wants to lose money, but I think the determination to make the clubs a profit making endeavor has contributed to their decline.

Let’s use Whidbey as an example of club management gone wrong. When I first got there in 2010, the club still had a Friday scene which was halfway decent due to strong RAG and fleet CO support. As a Prowler CAT 1, I was encouraged to go to the club every Friday. When I got to my fleet squadron, JOPA had lunch at the club several times a week and we all headed over on Friday afternoons for an hour or two.

Flash forward to 2013ish: the club stopped serving lunch, which cut down on club exposure for the new guys. That lack of exposure, coupled with shorter hours on Fridays, killed JOPAs desire to frequent the club.

It’s also difficult to push club attendance when it’s impossible to get a safe ride home from Oak Harbor to Anacortes that doesn’t involve a DD (no Uber, no willing cab companies, etc.). It just became easier to drive home and then walk to the bars in Anacortes (hence the O Club north atmosphere at places like Union Tavern). It’s telling that the most attended events at the Whidbey Club are the ones where there are shuttles provided.

I’m not privy to the base MWR meetings, but my perspective from the cheap seats was that club profit was more important than club accessibility, hence the push towards combined clubs. This may be wishful thinking, but why can’t we accept that clubs will lose money, and just fund them anyway so we can maintain the culture?

Also, the combined club concept needs to be killed with fire.